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> Israel did NOT rush in, and is engaging in effective counterattacks According to all the experts I read, Israel rushed in without a political outcome planned

> Israel did NOT rush in, and is engaging in effective counterattacks According to all the experts I read, Israel rushed in without a political outcome planned. All warfare is a tool to achieve political outcomes (unless the outcome was to drive Palestinians out of Gaza or just destroy as many people and buildings as possible). All warfare ends only with a stable political solution; otherwise it continues indefinitely; an example is Afghanistan, where the US failed to achieve a stable political solution and so the war never ended - unfortunately the Taliban have acheived a stable political solution, to some degree. > I have not heard those stories. Just desperate stories from the Palestinian side, which tells me the Israelis are being quite effective. I agree that the Israeli military has spared itself the hubris and casualities they experienced when they attacked Hezbollah around 20 years ago. But we still see stories criticizing the Israeli military, and we don't hear desperate stories from Hamas, only from civilians. A military killing civilians isn't accomplishing anything. The question is, are they being effective against Hamas and in establishing some desireable political outcome? > it has very high population density due to the insane 8 children-per-woman population expansion of the Palestinians over the last 60-70 years. Also from being unable to leave.

AtlasBarfed 3y ago
The political aim was to cause a LOT of casualties. I'm not going to disagree that this is ugly stuff, but Hamas must have known this was the result. Also I do think the Israelis think they can get a large amount of Hamas leadership. Gaza is a mafia state under control by Hamas, who likely control all aid coming into the country and certainly the Iranian military funding. Israel seems to apply a 10x minimum response to any Israeli casualties over the years. This attack is well above the 10x number already. And remember, the Israelis do not completely surround Gaza. Egypt is complicit in closing the walls of the prison on Gaza, and Egypt I'm told hates the Palestinians more than Israel does. I wonder why this is, Egypt did manage/oversee Gaza for 25 years and I guess said "no thanks". AFAIK, it's not like the Sinai peninsula is some valuable land, I think Egypt has room to take in Palestinian refugees. They simply refuse to do it. I have not gotten any good reason why they hate them. I guess the Lebanese hate their Palestinian enclave. It is clear the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, and a common brotherhood of Islam doesn't carry weight.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > I think Egypt has room to take in Palestinian refugees. They simply refuse to do it. I have not gotten any good reason why they hate them. I guess the Lebanese hate their Palestinian enclave. It is clear the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, and a common brotherhood of Islam doesn't carry weight. This is a bad take. Egypt, and others, refuse to take "Palestinian refugees" because doing so would make them complicit in Israel's ethic cleansing. Why should Palestinians be forced off their own land?
  - suslik 3y ago
    Why on earth would accepting refugees make them complicit? Is Poland complicit in the Russian attack on Ukraine because they allowed the refugees in?
    - GordonS 3y ago
      Because once they leave, Israel won't allow them back.
      - shmobot 3y ago
        Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories, they deport the non-complicit ones and the remaining ones are heavily oppressed. That should be the excuse for Poland or the rest of EU to not let the refugees in?
        wolverine876 3y ago
        The Arab countries think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza - drive out the Palestinians. They don't want to help Israel do that. > Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories I don't know that to be true. AFAIK, Russia would like the population there too.
        hellojesus 3y ago

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

The political aim was to cause a LOT of casualties. I'm not going to disagree that this is ugly stuff, but Hamas must have known this was the result. Also I do think the Israelis think they can get a large amount of Hamas leadership. Gaza is a mafia state under control by Hamas, who likely control all aid coming into the country and certainly the Iranian military funding. Israel seems to apply a 10x minimum response to any Israeli casualties over the years. This attack is well above the 10x number already. And remember, the Israelis do not completely surround Gaza. Egypt is complicit in closing the walls of the prison on Gaza, and Egypt I'm told hates the Palestinians more than Israel does. I wonder why this is, Egypt did manage/oversee Gaza for 25 years and I guess said "no thanks". AFAIK, it's not like the Sinai peninsula is some valuable land, I think Egypt has room to take in Palestinian refugees. They simply refuse to do it. I have not gotten any good reason why they hate them. I guess the Lebanese hate their Palestinian enclave. It is clear the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, and a common brotherhood of Islam doesn't carry weight.

GordonS 3y ago
> I think Egypt has room to take in Palestinian refugees. They simply refuse to do it. I have not gotten any good reason why they hate them. I guess the Lebanese hate their Palestinian enclave. It is clear the Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians, and a common brotherhood of Islam doesn't carry weight. This is a bad take. Egypt, and others, refuse to take "Palestinian refugees" because doing so would make them complicit in Israel's ethic cleansing. Why should Palestinians be forced off their own land?
- suslik 3y ago
  Why on earth would accepting refugees make them complicit? Is Poland complicit in the Russian attack on Ukraine because they allowed the refugees in?
  - GordonS 3y ago
    Because once they leave, Israel won't allow them back.
    - shmobot 3y ago
      Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories, they deport the non-complicit ones and the remaining ones are heavily oppressed. That should be the excuse for Poland or the rest of EU to not let the refugees in?
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        The Arab countries think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza - drive out the Palestinians. They don't want to help Israel do that. > Russia doesn't allow ukrainians back to the occupied territories I don't know that to be true. AFAIK, Russia would like the population there too.
        hellojesus 3y ago