4 ms·

It kinda seems like the NTSB doesn't really need Boeing's cooperation. Apparently they can just waltz into a factory where an accident occurred and talk to whoe

It kinda seems like the NTSB doesn't really need Boeing's cooperation. Apparently they can just waltz into a factory where an accident occurred and talk to whoever they want and look at whatever records they want. I wonder why they aren't doing that yet?

paulmd 3y ago
Because it’s better to let the criminal lie to investigators before you go nuclear on them, it strengthens the case if you can document intent to mislead and lie, and removes the opportunity for lawyerly “this is all a big misunderstanding that could have been avoided if they just asked, your honor!” defenses.
- Animats 3y ago
  The NTSB tries not to be adversarial. They're not a law enforcement agency. They analyze accidents, figure out what really happened, and produce technical reports. The goal is to prevent repeats of the same problem. Decades of this made aviation safe. Usually, everyone in aviation is very cooperative with the NTSB. For Boeing to be uncooperative is extremely unusual. That's a strong indicator that Boeing's safety culture is dead. The last time the NTSB encountered stonewalling was when Tesla (Musk, actually) was uncooperative about that crash where a Tesla on autopilot rammed into a large white semi-trailer, with no automatic braking at all. Musk threatened to report the NTSB to Congress. Nothing happened to the NTSB, and Tesla had to do a recall.
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    I don't know necessarily for the NTSB, but the usual standard for these safety agencies is that their work cannot and shall not be re-used in criminal or civil proceedings. We'd rather find the cause and improve safety than send somebody to jail if we can't have both. It may be different in the US because Americans are so blood thirsty (e.g. they still have and use the death sentence!) but that's how such an agency is usually intended to secure co-operation that you wouldn't necessarily get if you were law enforcement.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    I also agree with this but don't disagree with what I said either. There is very little doubt there's malfesiance here. We have entered the "what are you willing to say in response to [things we already know]" phase. The NTSB is looking to see who is going to say what. Under normal circumstances you're right, if nobody broke any rules nobody's fucked, and they're really more interested in seeing how the rules can shape behavior better going forward. I also think at this point that train has left the station.

paulmd 3y ago

Because it’s better to let the criminal lie to investigators before you go nuclear on them, it strengthens the case if you can document intent to mislead and lie, and removes the opportunity for lawyerly “this is all a big misunderstanding that could have been avoided if they just asked, your honor!” defenses.

Animats 3y ago
The NTSB tries not to be adversarial. They're not a law enforcement agency. They analyze accidents, figure out what really happened, and produce technical reports. The goal is to prevent repeats of the same problem. Decades of this made aviation safe. Usually, everyone in aviation is very cooperative with the NTSB. For Boeing to be uncooperative is extremely unusual. That's a strong indicator that Boeing's safety culture is dead. The last time the NTSB encountered stonewalling was when Tesla (Musk, actually) was uncooperative about that crash where a Tesla on autopilot rammed into a large white semi-trailer, with no automatic braking at all. Musk threatened to report the NTSB to Congress. Nothing happened to the NTSB, and Tesla had to do a recall.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  I don't know necessarily for the NTSB, but the usual standard for these safety agencies is that their work cannot and shall not be re-used in criminal or civil proceedings. We'd rather find the cause and improve safety than send somebody to jail if we can't have both. It may be different in the US because Americans are so blood thirsty (e.g. they still have and use the death sentence!) but that's how such an agency is usually intended to secure co-operation that you wouldn't necessarily get if you were law enforcement.
- paulmd 3y ago
  I also agree with this but don't disagree with what I said either. There is very little doubt there's malfesiance here. We have entered the "what are you willing to say in response to [things we already know]" phase. The NTSB is looking to see who is going to say what. Under normal circumstances you're right, if nobody broke any rules nobody's fucked, and they're really more interested in seeing how the rules can shape behavior better going forward. I also think at this point that train has left the station.