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The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic; Hamas is an accelerationist and revolutionary movement that believes that dead Gaza

The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic; Hamas is an accelerationist and revolutionary movement that believes that dead Gazans advance their aims. Israel seems pretty happy to help Hamas out with proving out their theory right now, but it's important to note that a Gazan could've been born and raised literally to the age of majority without getting a chance to vote on whether they think Hamas is doing right by them.

bawolff 3y ago
It is always true that governments don't fully represent their people. Some do more than others, but i am not sure how it matters. The fact is that hamas was in control of gaza and taking military action on its behalf. Whether ordinary Gazans approve is besides the point other than perhaps making it more tragic. As an example, we don't say ukraine shouldn't defend themselves from russia because russian elections were rigged even though they clearly are.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  If Ukraine, in response to Russia’s invasion, did something remotely equivalent to Israel’s actions so far, they’d rightly be condemned by most people. It matters whether gazans approve because people use their approval as pretext for bombing them.
mschuster91 3y ago
> The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic I fully agree with you on everything you said. Doesn't change the fact though that the blame for all the Palestinian casualties cannot be laid on Israel, not even by international law - as Hamas, the (more or less) legitimate government of Gaza, abused civilian infrastructure, they stripped it from the legal protection against military action. I mean... what's the alternative? Let Hamas continue to exist, only to have them regroup and announce the next intifada in a few years? There's no way Israel can (or will) accept that - even if the USA and EU completely withdraw any support, for any Israeli government the first priority is the survival of the nation.
- eropple 3y ago
  Look, I am both ideologically and morally more aligned with Israel (or the pre-Otzma-Yehudit-getting-an-ounce-of-power Israel anyway) than I ever could be with regards to Hamas. But "what's the alternative to doing an ethnic cleansing?" is "not doing a ethnic cleansing". Yes, that's harder. It involves more work, it involves more risk, and when the book closes, you don't get every last inch of what you want. It also means not fairly blithely killing and displacing civilians 'cause you can't nail down the people you have an actual problem with. Skill issue. And let's be honest: it's more and more obvious that the people that Ben-Gvir and that crew have a problem with are not merely Hamas, but "everyone in Israel who isn't Jewish." (Israeli Arabs are absolutely next in line for that guy.) Like, fuck Hamas, to be clear--I know, what a bold position, I'm so brave. But the thing is, it seems obvious that what Israel is doing won't even achieve their stated aims about Hamas in the first place; Ismail Haniyeh is not going to get creased by a bomb dropped on Gaza, you know? But what Israel is doing may, however, move most of an ethnic population out of their homes and leave it conveniently empty. And we just plain have expectations of ostensibly-liberal countries...and one of them is to not do that. Ethnic cleansing's a war crime even if you think free-firing a hospital because Hamas might be there isn't.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    >> But the thing is, it seems obvious that what Israel is doing won't even achieve their stated aims about Hamas in the first place; Ismail Haniyeh is not going to get creased by a bomb dropped on Gaza, you know? People keep saying this but I don't know why. For me it's obvious that if the IDF keep besieging Gaza, Hamas will eventually have to come out of their holes, and die. I suspect this already happens a lot except we don't get to find out because there's no reporting from the locations where IDF and Hamas fighters exchange fire. But, reports from the few hostages that have been released, or freed, make it clear that Hamas is subject to the same deprivation of food and water as the rest of Gaza (the hostages tell stories about the poor quality and amount of meals they shared with their guards) and they're stuck in their bunkers to boot, which can't be great for their overall physical and mental stamina. This is not a war that Hamas can win, not even survive. Not in the long run. Their best chance is to keep their heads down and wait it out. But if I understand that, IDF commanders certainly understand that and they're not going to go away until Hamas all come out of their holes exhausted and starved waving little white flags. I think the mistake people make is to think of Hamas a bit like the partisans who took to the maquis in WWII, or maybe the Taliban against the US. It's not the same situation. Hamas has nowhere to go. They are trapped, like rats in a maze. They're not getting out of that alive, unless the IDF is forced to withdraw by political pressure, which so far is not happening. Besides which, if the IDF keeps at it like it is, it won't really matter because there won't be any Gaza, or Gazans, left for Hamas to control. Hamas (and I mean the Al Qassam brigades) are toast. The only question is how much Gaza will bleed until they pop out of the toaster.

bawolff 3y ago

It is always true that governments don't fully represent their people. Some do more than others, but i am not sure how it matters. The fact is that hamas was in control of gaza and taking military action on its behalf. Whether ordinary Gazans approve is besides the point other than perhaps making it more tragic. As an example, we don't say ukraine shouldn't defend themselves from russia because russian elections were rigged even though they clearly are.

BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
If Ukraine, in response to Russia’s invasion, did something remotely equivalent to Israel’s actions so far, they’d rightly be condemned by most people. It matters whether gazans approve because people use their approval as pretext for bombing them.

mschuster91 3y ago

> The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at best problematic I fully agree with you on everything you said. Doesn't change the fact though that the blame for all the Palestinian casualties cannot be laid on Israel, not even by international law - as Hamas, the (more or less) legitimate government of Gaza, abused civilian infrastructure, they stripped it from the legal protection against military action. I mean... what's the alternative? Let Hamas continue to exist, only to have them regroup and announce the next intifada in a few years? There's no way Israel can (or will) accept that - even if the USA and EU completely withdraw any support, for any Israeli government the first priority is the survival of the nation.

eropple 3y ago
Look, I am both ideologically and morally more aligned with Israel (or the pre-Otzma-Yehudit-getting-an-ounce-of-power Israel anyway) than I ever could be with regards to Hamas. But "what's the alternative to doing an ethnic cleansing?" is "not doing a ethnic cleansing". Yes, that's harder. It involves more work, it involves more risk, and when the book closes, you don't get every last inch of what you want. It also means not fairly blithely killing and displacing civilians 'cause you can't nail down the people you have an actual problem with. Skill issue. And let's be honest: it's more and more obvious that the people that Ben-Gvir and that crew have a problem with are not merely Hamas, but "everyone in Israel who isn't Jewish." (Israeli Arabs are absolutely next in line for that guy.) Like, fuck Hamas, to be clear--I know, what a bold position, I'm so brave. But the thing is, it seems obvious that what Israel is doing won't even achieve their stated aims about Hamas in the first place; Ismail Haniyeh is not going to get creased by a bomb dropped on Gaza, you know? But what Israel is doing may, however, move most of an ethnic population out of their homes and leave it conveniently empty. And we just plain have expectations of ostensibly-liberal countries...and one of them is to not do that. Ethnic cleansing's a war crime even if you think free-firing a hospital because Hamas might be there isn't.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  >> But the thing is, it seems obvious that what Israel is doing won't even achieve their stated aims about Hamas in the first place; Ismail Haniyeh is not going to get creased by a bomb dropped on Gaza, you know? People keep saying this but I don't know why. For me it's obvious that if the IDF keep besieging Gaza, Hamas will eventually have to come out of their holes, and die. I suspect this already happens a lot except we don't get to find out because there's no reporting from the locations where IDF and Hamas fighters exchange fire. But, reports from the few hostages that have been released, or freed, make it clear that Hamas is subject to the same deprivation of food and water as the rest of Gaza (the hostages tell stories about the poor quality and amount of meals they shared with their guards) and they're stuck in their bunkers to boot, which can't be great for their overall physical and mental stamina. This is not a war that Hamas can win, not even survive. Not in the long run. Their best chance is to keep their heads down and wait it out. But if I understand that, IDF commanders certainly understand that and they're not going to go away until Hamas all come out of their holes exhausted and starved waving little white flags. I think the mistake people make is to think of Hamas a bit like the partisans who took to the maquis in WWII, or maybe the Taliban against the US. It's not the same situation. Hamas has nowhere to go. They are trapped, like rats in a maze. They're not getting out of that alive, unless the IDF is forced to withdraw by political pressure, which so far is not happening. Besides which, if the IDF keeps at it like it is, it won't really matter because there won't be any Gaza, or Gazans, left for Hamas to control. Hamas (and I mean the Al Qassam brigades) are toast. The only question is how much Gaza will bleed until they pop out of the toaster.