4 ms·

Where is the burden of proof here? I generally think that militaries and governments in international relations, and especially regarding warfare, are not trus

Where is the burden of proof here? I generally think that militaries and governments in international relations, and especially regarding warfare, are not trustworthy; they will lie if it helps them. Israel in particular focuses on information for the Western public (which I'm sure they would agree to; they even have a word for it, and especially in this war (they are well-organized and there is plenty of recent journalism about it). I don't think Israeli - or Hamas - claims are credible on their own. Is there some other basis for this claim?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
This was honestly the first I heard of it, so no opinion yet. That said, OP put forward evidence and the comment I responded to basically put forward that governments lie.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > the comment I responded to basically put forward that governments lie I appreciate you seeking something substantive, but in this case, doesn't that simplistic assertion still effectively discredit government claims? I remember reading US government claims re Afghanistan and Iraq - where they were under much less pressure than the Israeli government today: Did that strike kill civilians? The answer was always 'no' until someone could prove 'yes' - you learn that the 'no' didn't mean anything.
tety 3y ago
https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1756728159158812921 https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1756728159158812921 This tweet has many photos of the above journalist participating and commanding a Hamas exercise, I think these are pretty incriminating. https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1745158775567175764 https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1745158775567175764 This tweet contains an Islamic Jihad document listing another journalist as a member
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Twitter/X, especially for an issue like this one, is not at all a credible source IMHO. Disinformation and misinformation on Twitter is a cliche; it's overwhelming.
  - tety 3y ago
    These are photos published by the IDF, not random users on X even if you don’t trust the IDF, you could easily verify if those are the photos of the same journalist by looking at them.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      That doesn't tell us whether the photos are actually from the IDF, whether they were modified, where and when they were taken, what the context for the photos is, whether the narrative added to the photos (the one you are asserting and apparently someone else originally put forward) is accurate. It's just two collections of bits that someone posted online. People are easily misled by those things, including you and me. We don't have time or skill or resources to do the verification. But one efficient solution is for someone to develop those skills and resources professionally, and to spend the time to use them. Those people are called journalists, among other things. Stop reading X, which we can't interpret accurately (as is extremely well demonstrated billions of times) and start reading something professionally verified. That's my advice, at least. If you are pro-Israeli, realize that Hamas uses X to mislead and influence public opinion. If you believe there is truth to Israel's position, then X - probably the world's leading mechanism for disinformation and misinformation - is a threat to Israel.
      - tety 3y ago
        These are official IDF accounts, the photos are said by the IDF to be found on the journalist laptop and have backing articles published by journalist who received the same information from the IDF. Psychological warfare campaigns are usually done under false flag, so I doubt this is the case Look at the images and judge for yourself

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

This was honestly the first I heard of it, so no opinion yet. That said, OP put forward evidence and the comment I responded to basically put forward that governments lie.

wolverine876 3y ago
> the comment I responded to basically put forward that governments lie I appreciate you seeking something substantive, but in this case, doesn't that simplistic assertion still effectively discredit government claims? I remember reading US government claims re Afghanistan and Iraq - where they were under much less pressure than the Israeli government today: Did that strike kill civilians? The answer was always 'no' until someone could prove 'yes' - you learn that the 'no' didn't mean anything.

tety 3y ago

https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1756728159158812921 https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1756728159158812921 This tweet has many photos of the above journalist participating and commanding a Hamas exercise, I think these are pretty incriminating. https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1745158775567175764 https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1745158775567175764 This tweet contains an Islamic Jihad document listing another journalist as a member

wolverine876 3y ago
Twitter/X, especially for an issue like this one, is not at all a credible source IMHO. Disinformation and misinformation on Twitter is a cliche; it's overwhelming.
- tety 3y ago
  These are photos published by the IDF, not random users on X even if you don’t trust the IDF, you could easily verify if those are the photos of the same journalist by looking at them.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    That doesn't tell us whether the photos are actually from the IDF, whether they were modified, where and when they were taken, what the context for the photos is, whether the narrative added to the photos (the one you are asserting and apparently someone else originally put forward) is accurate. It's just two collections of bits that someone posted online. People are easily misled by those things, including you and me. We don't have time or skill or resources to do the verification. But one efficient solution is for someone to develop those skills and resources professionally, and to spend the time to use them. Those people are called journalists, among other things. Stop reading X, which we can't interpret accurately (as is extremely well demonstrated billions of times) and start reading something professionally verified. That's my advice, at least. If you are pro-Israeli, realize that Hamas uses X to mislead and influence public opinion. If you believe there is truth to Israel's position, then X - probably the world's leading mechanism for disinformation and misinformation - is a threat to Israel.
    - tety 3y ago
      These are official IDF accounts, the photos are said by the IDF to be found on the journalist laptop and have backing articles published by journalist who received the same information from the IDF. Psychological warfare campaigns are usually done under false flag, so I doubt this is the case Look at the images and judge for yourself