4 ms·

I find it interesting that there's a not-small class of atheists who, believing they face the horror of annihilation, are driven to believe in things that are j

I find it interesting that there's a not-small class of atheists who, believing they face the horror of annihilation, are driven to believe in things that are just as irrational as traditional religion-- mind uploading, cryonics, singularity, etc. I don't know if there's an existence after death, though I think there probably is one, and I consider myself lucky to believe this, for if I'm wrong, I'll never know. What's horrible about annihilation/nonexistence isn't any experience of it-- there is none, by definition-- but the rather hideous shadow the prospect, were it true, would cast over life.

yters 18y ago
Yeah, I don't get the "horror" of annihilation. If I won't care once I'm gone, why should I care now?
- aaronblohowiak 18y ago
  Biology.
- time_management 18y ago
  Because a human life is so incredibly short that decline and death are rapidly impending, and it's difficult not to think about them constantly. Perhaps I'm unusual, but I think about death-- my death, not just the abstraction-- several times per day. And I'm not a depressed or morbid person, so I think this is pretty normal. It would suck if the final act of existence were painful decline, followed by eternal oblivion. It could well be the case, but I'm glad that if it is, I'll never know about it.
  - yters 18y ago
    Well, that's just a matter of psychology then, not any kind of logical should. I think about death too, but it doesn't seem to bother me like it does others since I don't see a logical reason behind the dread. Sure, the psychological side still gets to me when I stare death in the face, but otherwise not so much. A logical should would be something like if I were to die I would spend an eternity in ceaseless boredom. That would be a reason to avoid death. Otherwise it is just a false anticipation, like jumping off a high rock when you know it is perfectly safe. I try to eliminate that from my life if I can, which is the rational course of action. I think this is the psychological basis of thrill seeking. If you look at your own decision making process, you'll see that this procedure is how you also shape your psychological reactions. Say you really dreaded a certain event, such as moving out of your parents house. Then, when the time came, you found you could handle yourself alright. With that knowledge in the back of your mind, you no longer dread similar situations as much. I'm just making this process explicit in how I think about life.
rw 18y ago
In your words, what is not rational about "mind uploading, cryonics, singularity" ? Even if you don't know for certain that there is or is not "existence after death", are you saying you live your life believing in that possibility?
- time_management 18y ago
  In your words, what is not rational about "mind uploading, cryonics, singularity" ? It's all extremely unlikely, and it's irrational to believe in it with the faith that a lot of the singularitarian atheists do. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 150-year or longer lifespan-- in fact, it's probable that the first 150-year-old will be born before I die-- but mind-uploading makes no sense. How are we going to upload something when we don't know what it, physically, is... or even whether or not it's physical? Cryonics has the same issue, because there's no reason to believe the consciousness "sticks around" waiting to reawaken in that corpse.
  - jodrellblank 18y ago
    We do know what the mind physically is - it's somewhere less than all the components of a person. It may be non-physical in the sense that it's a pattern of information, but patterns can be represented electronically ... are you suggesting it's supernatural? no reason to believe the consciousness "sticks around" waiting to reawaken in that corpse. Yes there is - I sleep each night and wake each day. I don't think consciousness exists separately, I think it's an emergent phenomenon. Note to Eliezer, that means I think it is a complex side effect of a multitude of electrobiochemical processes, not that I think it's magical. If my body is kept without decay and said processes can be restarted, then they will process information starting with existing patterns (what's in memory) and new input from senses and there, but for the fact that this is fictional, I am. Cogito, ergo sum.
    - time_management 18y ago
      Yes there is - I sleep each night and wake each day. That's different. Your consciousness continues while you sleep, although you usually lose all awareness, mindfulness, and capacity to form memories. There are, however, yogis who are able to remain aware of their cognitive processes during both dream and deep sleep. However, when a person is dead, the general consensus seems to be that the consciousness has left the body-- it's either elsewhere, or it has ceased to exist entirely. If the materialist explanation of consciousness is correct, then it's plausible that "someone" will awaken when your body is resurrected and will have your memories, but it won't be you, because you won't exist to be experiencing it.

yters 18y ago

Yeah, I don't get the "horror" of annihilation. If I won't care once I'm gone, why should I care now?

aaronblohowiak 18y ago
Biology.
time_management 18y ago
Because a human life is so incredibly short that decline and death are rapidly impending, and it's difficult not to think about them constantly. Perhaps I'm unusual, but I think about death-- my death, not just the abstraction-- several times per day. And I'm not a depressed or morbid person, so I think this is pretty normal. It would suck if the final act of existence were painful decline, followed by eternal oblivion. It could well be the case, but I'm glad that if it is, I'll never know about it.
- yters 18y ago
  Well, that's just a matter of psychology then, not any kind of logical should. I think about death too, but it doesn't seem to bother me like it does others since I don't see a logical reason behind the dread. Sure, the psychological side still gets to me when I stare death in the face, but otherwise not so much. A logical should would be something like if I were to die I would spend an eternity in ceaseless boredom. That would be a reason to avoid death. Otherwise it is just a false anticipation, like jumping off a high rock when you know it is perfectly safe. I try to eliminate that from my life if I can, which is the rational course of action. I think this is the psychological basis of thrill seeking. If you look at your own decision making process, you'll see that this procedure is how you also shape your psychological reactions. Say you really dreaded a certain event, such as moving out of your parents house. Then, when the time came, you found you could handle yourself alright. With that knowledge in the back of your mind, you no longer dread similar situations as much. I'm just making this process explicit in how I think about life.

rw 18y ago

In your words, what is not rational about "mind uploading, cryonics, singularity" ? Even if you don't know for certain that there is or is not "existence after death", are you saying you live your life believing in that possibility?

time_management 18y ago
In your words, what is not rational about "mind uploading, cryonics, singularity" ? It's all extremely unlikely, and it's irrational to believe in it with the faith that a lot of the singularitarian atheists do. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 150-year or longer lifespan-- in fact, it's probable that the first 150-year-old will be born before I die-- but mind-uploading makes no sense. How are we going to upload something when we don't know what it, physically, is... or even whether or not it's physical? Cryonics has the same issue, because there's no reason to believe the consciousness "sticks around" waiting to reawaken in that corpse.
- jodrellblank 18y ago
  We do know what the mind physically is - it's somewhere less than all the components of a person. It may be non-physical in the sense that it's a pattern of information, but patterns can be represented electronically ... are you suggesting it's supernatural? no reason to believe the consciousness "sticks around" waiting to reawaken in that corpse. Yes there is - I sleep each night and wake each day. I don't think consciousness exists separately, I think it's an emergent phenomenon. Note to Eliezer, that means I think it is a complex side effect of a multitude of electrobiochemical processes, not that I think it's magical. If my body is kept without decay and said processes can be restarted, then they will process information starting with existing patterns (what's in memory) and new input from senses and there, but for the fact that this is fictional, I am. Cogito, ergo sum.
  - time_management 18y ago
    Yes there is - I sleep each night and wake each day. That's different. Your consciousness continues while you sleep, although you usually lose all awareness, mindfulness, and capacity to form memories. There are, however, yogis who are able to remain aware of their cognitive processes during both dream and deep sleep. However, when a person is dead, the general consensus seems to be that the consciousness has left the body-- it's either elsewhere, or it has ceased to exist entirely. If the materialist explanation of consciousness is correct, then it's plausible that "someone" will awaken when your body is resurrected and will have your memories, but it won't be you, because you won't exist to be experiencing it.