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Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :')

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

tebbers 3y ago
There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Made a mistake, why? They either comply right away, or just pretend to be deaf with their own interpretation, make Epic sue them again, pull the situation for a few years keep profiting off developers with their 30% rent, maybe at the end of it the EU will fine them some peanut and the rest is just profit, can’t understand what the mistake is here
  - andyferris 3y ago
    The potential fines aren’t peanuts. From memory, they are up to like 12% on global annual revenue (not profit), or something.
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      Ah didn’t know it, that would be cool, fingers crossed
- mike_d 3y ago
  > how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON? The EU law allows for consumers to sideload other app stores on hardware they control. It has no provision that compels Apple to continue doing business with a company in their own app store. Yes, it is a business decision you need to make to offer a sideload app store and opt-out of the Apple app store. Does it suck for Epic? Yes. But this is the path they chose. Edit: If you read the Apple letter Epic cites it refers to App Store Review Guidelines, clearly they are terminating an App Store developer account. Nothing stops Apple from minting a fresh Developer Account with only Marketplace capabilities if they apply for a Marketplace account.
  - wilg 3y ago
    Epic is unable to make their own app store without a developer account.
    - mike_d 3y ago
      It is unclear exactly what Epic lost access to, but you can have access to the CIP section required to get a certificate with an Alternative Marketplace entitlement without having access to the App Store Connection section which allows you to publish to the App Store.
  - nar001 3y ago
    That's not how things work, you can only make an alternative app store with Apple's consent, not without. Deleting Epic's dev account means they can't make an alternative app store.
    - dwaite 3y ago
      Alternative app marketplaces are required to accept an agreement including payment terms to Apple. It is still a business relationship in Apple's DMA implementation.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    app store =/= developer account
- Narkov 3y ago
  Just need some context here...one of the biggest companies in the world, ever, with all the financial and legal resources available to them, and you think they aren't playing 5D chess?
epolanski 3y ago
I agree the mobile ecosystem is cancerous, I have never given a dime to Apple for anything but their MacBooks for work reasons. The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy". Because if I go along this line of thinking then the conclusion is that they don't give a damn about it on the Mac line because there I can install what I want. It's not up to Apple to decide how I use their products and I will never ever buy their phones albeit I need to use one to test mobile websites and applications for work.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy". There's a distinction between "secure for users by default" and "secure from users" Apple (and Apple fans) really like to muddy the two. You can build a perfectly secure ecosystem by default... that still has an escape hatch (covered with warnings) that the user retains the right to use. Apple chose in its mobile ecosystem, and continues to choose, not to do this. Ergo, what they're really in favor of is "security from users" PS: To head off the 'users are the most insecure part of a system' apologism, (a) we're talking about personal devices, not managed ones & (b) with great power comes great responsibility.
  - Zak 3y ago
    This complaint is valid for Google's Android as well for building a remote attestation system apps can use to see if the user has modified the operating system.
    - XorNot 3y ago
      "Bring Your Own Device" has honestly been pretty pathological in this regard. I like only having my phone on me, I very much dislike the various levels of invasive that corporate compliance software is designed around (Google do...not a bad job here in just having the domains separated, but I'd be much happier if it all had to live in it's own VM with only the access I grant it back to the main device).
    - 3y ago
pjerem 3y ago
> But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago. I love my iPhone and my Mac. They are great devices. I’ve been using Apple products happily despite having pretty few acquaintance with the Apple brand (which I feel incredibly arrogant). All of those stories about the DMA and the total lack of good faith from Apple when it comes to respect the rules are making me strongly reconsider buying new Apple products in the future. In fact I’m starting to regret my investment in a Air M2 last year because while it’s not new that Apple consider my devices to be their own, they are not even trying to act like it’s not the case anymore. They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.
- can16358p 3y ago
  Similar here. I like their products, their design and don't have anything better to my needs. I even find some sense about this whole DMA thing to their respect. But their user hostility and "you are wrong we are always right and we never accept that we are wrong" kind of gaslighting attitude of them as a company really makes me lose trust in them as a customer. While I still use Apple devices, I wouldn't have thought of switching to another ecosystem, say, 8 years ago. Now, if there was a good alternative, I'd seriously consider.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    The reason I haven't bought into the Apple mobile ecosystem wholly is because of the power they could exert. My friends' counterarguments were always that they did not currently exert that power to the detriment of users. To which my reply was "Show me a few down quarters, missed growth targets, or a threat to one of their primary sources of revenue and see what they do." Any company should always be expected to pathologically leverage all forms of control it can, if it needs to generate profit.
    - pjerem 3y ago
      You are right and that’s something I knew when I bought. It’s not that I liked it but rather than in my opinion, it wasn’t better on the Android side (I mean, at least Apple don’t sell my health data). Windows is worse than everything else. (In fact I’m really grateful that Linux is even existing because otherwise the situation would be catastrophic. But I digress) The point is that now, Apple is exercising this control to (try to) actively defeat public regulators. I do believe It’s pretty serious when a company actively tries to circumvent the rules made by the public powers. And I say that as someone who ideologically tolerates civil disobedience when needed. But corporations are not humans, they must respect the rules in all circumstances. Because respecting the stupid regulations and the stupid laws is the only thing that distinguishes them from mafioso systems.
nozzlegear 3y ago
They’ve already approved others for third-party App Store implementations: https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909 https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909
- archagon 3y ago
  Are any of them game stores?
numbsafari 3y ago
Call me when Xbox allows side loading.
- drfuzzyness 3y ago
  It's somewhat locked down as you need to apply with Microsoft for a Developer account, but you can technically sideload UWP apps onto your Xbox hardware by entering Developer Mode. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk... It's not convenient and you need to reboot your console to go back to running commercial apps, but it is present. At least it's a one-time payment to get the developer account.
  - greedo 3y ago
    And what percentage does Microsoft charge for games on the Xbox?
  - sjm 3y ago
    How is that at all different from what you could already do with Apple devices?
- danShumway 3y ago
  Would anyone who's calling for iPhone sideloading be upset about Xbox sideloading? I wouldn't. By all means, let's regulate both Microsoft and Apple. The more the merrier. I don't think I've ever looked at a video game console and thought, "I'm sure glad that I can't sideload games onto this." This is a slippery slope that I am happy to go down.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

tebbers 3y ago

There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?

lnxg33k1 3y ago
Made a mistake, why? They either comply right away, or just pretend to be deaf with their own interpretation, make Epic sue them again, pull the situation for a few years keep profiting off developers with their 30% rent, maybe at the end of it the EU will fine them some peanut and the rest is just profit, can’t understand what the mistake is here
- andyferris 3y ago
  The potential fines aren’t peanuts. From memory, they are up to like 12% on global annual revenue (not profit), or something.
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Ah didn’t know it, that would be cool, fingers crossed
mike_d 3y ago
> how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON? The EU law allows for consumers to sideload other app stores on hardware they control. It has no provision that compels Apple to continue doing business with a company in their own app store. Yes, it is a business decision you need to make to offer a sideload app store and opt-out of the Apple app store. Does it suck for Epic? Yes. But this is the path they chose. Edit: If you read the Apple letter Epic cites it refers to App Store Review Guidelines, clearly they are terminating an App Store developer account. Nothing stops Apple from minting a fresh Developer Account with only Marketplace capabilities if they apply for a Marketplace account.
- wilg 3y ago
  Epic is unable to make their own app store without a developer account.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    It is unclear exactly what Epic lost access to, but you can have access to the CIP section required to get a certificate with an Alternative Marketplace entitlement without having access to the App Store Connection section which allows you to publish to the App Store.
- nar001 3y ago
  That's not how things work, you can only make an alternative app store with Apple's consent, not without. Deleting Epic's dev account means they can't make an alternative app store.
  - dwaite 3y ago
    Alternative app marketplaces are required to accept an agreement including payment terms to Apple. It is still a business relationship in Apple's DMA implementation.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  app store =/= developer account
Narkov 3y ago
Just need some context here...one of the biggest companies in the world, ever, with all the financial and legal resources available to them, and you think they aren't playing 5D chess?

epolanski 3y ago

I agree the mobile ecosystem is cancerous, I have never given a dime to Apple for anything but their MacBooks for work reasons. The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy". Because if I go along this line of thinking then the conclusion is that they don't give a damn about it on the Mac line because there I can install what I want. It's not up to Apple to decide how I use their products and I will never ever buy their phones albeit I need to use one to test mobile websites and applications for work.

ethbr1 3y ago
> The thing that gets most on my nerves is the ridiculous "protecting users security and privacy". There's a distinction between "secure for users by default" and "secure from users" Apple (and Apple fans) really like to muddy the two. You can build a perfectly secure ecosystem by default... that still has an escape hatch (covered with warnings) that the user retains the right to use. Apple chose in its mobile ecosystem, and continues to choose, not to do this. Ergo, what they're really in favor of is "security from users" PS: To head off the 'users are the most insecure part of a system' apologism, (a) we're talking about personal devices, not managed ones & (b) with great power comes great responsibility.
- Zak 3y ago
  This complaint is valid for Google's Android as well for building a remote attestation system apps can use to see if the user has modified the operating system.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    "Bring Your Own Device" has honestly been pretty pathological in this regard. I like only having my phone on me, I very much dislike the various levels of invasive that corporate compliance software is designed around (Google do...not a bad job here in just having the domains separated, but I'd be much happier if it all had to live in it's own VM with only the access I grant it back to the main device).
  - 3y ago

pjerem 3y ago

> But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago. I love my iPhone and my Mac. They are great devices. I’ve been using Apple products happily despite having pretty few acquaintance with the Apple brand (which I feel incredibly arrogant). All of those stories about the DMA and the total lack of good faith from Apple when it comes to respect the rules are making me strongly reconsider buying new Apple products in the future. In fact I’m starting to regret my investment in a Air M2 last year because while it’s not new that Apple consider my devices to be their own, they are not even trying to act like it’s not the case anymore. They are actively and publicly fighting against my (their customer) interests.

can16358p 3y ago
Similar here. I like their products, their design and don't have anything better to my needs. I even find some sense about this whole DMA thing to their respect. But their user hostility and "you are wrong we are always right and we never accept that we are wrong" kind of gaslighting attitude of them as a company really makes me lose trust in them as a customer. While I still use Apple devices, I wouldn't have thought of switching to another ecosystem, say, 8 years ago. Now, if there was a good alternative, I'd seriously consider.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  The reason I haven't bought into the Apple mobile ecosystem wholly is because of the power they could exert. My friends' counterarguments were always that they did not currently exert that power to the detriment of users. To which my reply was "Show me a few down quarters, missed growth targets, or a threat to one of their primary sources of revenue and see what they do." Any company should always be expected to pathologically leverage all forms of control it can, if it needs to generate profit.
  - pjerem 3y ago
    You are right and that’s something I knew when I bought. It’s not that I liked it but rather than in my opinion, it wasn’t better on the Android side (I mean, at least Apple don’t sell my health data). Windows is worse than everything else. (In fact I’m really grateful that Linux is even existing because otherwise the situation would be catastrophic. But I digress) The point is that now, Apple is exercising this control to (try to) actively defeat public regulators. I do believe It’s pretty serious when a company actively tries to circumvent the rules made by the public powers. And I say that as someone who ideologically tolerates civil disobedience when needed. But corporations are not humans, they must respect the rules in all circumstances. Because respecting the stupid regulations and the stupid laws is the only thing that distinguishes them from mafioso systems.

nozzlegear 3y ago

They’ve already approved others for third-party App Store implementations: https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909 https://mastodon.social/@rileytestut/112039139930789909

archagon 3y ago
Are any of them game stores?

numbsafari 3y ago

Call me when Xbox allows side loading.

drfuzzyness 3y ago
It's somewhat locked down as you need to apply with Microsoft for a Developer account, but you can technically sideload UWP apps onto your Xbox hardware by entering Developer Mode. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devkit-activation https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk... It's not convenient and you need to reboot your console to go back to running commercial apps, but it is present. At least it's a one-time payment to get the developer account.
- greedo 3y ago
  And what percentage does Microsoft charge for games on the Xbox?
- sjm 3y ago
  How is that at all different from what you could already do with Apple devices?
danShumway 3y ago
Would anyone who's calling for iPhone sideloading be upset about Xbox sideloading? I wouldn't. By all means, let's regulate both Microsoft and Apple. The more the merrier. I don't think I've ever looked at a video game console and thought, "I'm sure glad that I can't sideload games onto this." This is a slippery slope that I am happy to go down.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]