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No, one side of a conflict cannot ignore the rules simply because the other side does. It also seems an especially poor argument when one side is a nuclear-arm

No, one side of a conflict cannot ignore the rules simply because the other side does. It also seems an especially poor argument when one side is a nuclear-armed, highly modern military power and the other a lighltly armed militia.

jncfhnb 3y ago
Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up. This is a very difficult situation.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible "clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade. > When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up Right, but that's a strawman argument, as there has been no evidence of Hamas using hospitals as an "arms hub".
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    Clearing operations have largely been bulldozers, not leveling an area with bombs. Yes, it does suck for the civilians. Yes there is immense collateral damage. What would you do differently when you know terrorists funded by a hostile third party have an extensive tunnel network though? I’m sorry but you cannot allow it to exist. You have to destroy it. There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there and indisputably connected to these tunnels.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      > What would you do differently Not knowingly massacre civilians? If they supposedly have 10 million miles of tunnels (or whatever the IDF claims), then the very idea of taking out tunnels is pointless anyway. Hamas aren't some random terrorists, they are a resistance to occupation with a clear goal - if I was Israel, I would respect international law, remove myself from occupied territories, and recognise an independant Palestinian state. Alongside, I'd be figuring out how to deradicalise my population. > There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there No, there is much to dispute! For starters, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that Hamas have "hospital lairs". Except of course for the preposterous IDF 3D rendering of Al Shifa.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Ok great, so you’re going to roll over while Iran increases military pressure into your borders and you’re just asking the same question from a weaker position a few years later. You cannot frame this conflict merely Israel and poor Palestine. Because look, I agree, Israel’s treatment of Palestine is dogshit. But you cannot achieve a peaceful outcome while Iran is right there as a militaristic hostile nation that condones funding terrorism.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade I wanted to add a bit more about this, to illustrate how punitive Israel's blockade is. Israel inspects everything entering Gaza, prohibiting much of it. Some of the things Israel has banned from entering Gaza include: - Crayons - Books - Candles - Chocolate - Newspapers - Vinegar - Potato chips (crisps) - Sewing machines - Fishing rods - Sheets - Blankets - Wedding dresses - Jam - Coriander - Seeds (so Gazans can't grow food) This helps to illustrate the level of control and punitive authoritaranism that Israel has exerted over Gaza, prior to Oct 7th - it's all about collective punishment of Gazans, with the aim of forcing them to leave.
kbelder 3y ago
The rules state that they can.

jncfhnb 3y ago

Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up. This is a very difficult situation.

GordonS 3y ago
> the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible "clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade. > When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms siege versus just blowing it up Right, but that's a strawman argument, as there has been no evidence of Hamas using hospitals as an "arms hub".
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  Clearing operations have largely been bulldozers, not leveling an area with bombs. Yes, it does suck for the civilians. Yes there is immense collateral damage. What would you do differently when you know terrorists funded by a hostile third party have an extensive tunnel network though? I’m sorry but you cannot allow it to exist. You have to destroy it. There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there and indisputably connected to these tunnels.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    > What would you do differently Not knowingly massacre civilians? If they supposedly have 10 million miles of tunnels (or whatever the IDF claims), then the very idea of taking out tunnels is pointless anyway. Hamas aren't some random terrorists, they are a resistance to occupation with a clear goal - if I was Israel, I would respect international law, remove myself from occupied territories, and recognise an independant Palestinian state. Alongside, I'd be figuring out how to deradicalise my population. > There exact purposes of the hospital lairs used by Hamas are unclear but they’re indisputably there No, there is much to dispute! For starters, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that Hamas have "hospital lairs". Except of course for the preposterous IDF 3D rendering of Al Shifa.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Ok great, so you’re going to roll over while Iran increases military pressure into your borders and you’re just asking the same question from a weaker position a few years later. You cannot frame this conflict merely Israel and poor Palestine. Because look, I agree, Israel’s treatment of Palestine is dogshit. But you cannot achieve a peaceful outcome while Iran is right there as a militaristic hostile nation that condones funding terrorism.
- GordonS 3y ago
  > Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade I wanted to add a bit more about this, to illustrate how punitive Israel's blockade is. Israel inspects everything entering Gaza, prohibiting much of it. Some of the things Israel has banned from entering Gaza include: - Crayons - Books - Candles - Chocolate - Newspapers - Vinegar - Potato chips (crisps) - Sewing machines - Fishing rods - Sheets - Blankets - Wedding dresses - Jam - Coriander - Seeds (so Gazans can't grow food) This helps to illustrate the level of control and punitive authoritaranism that Israel has exerted over Gaza, prior to Oct 7th - it's all about collective punishment of Gazans, with the aim of forcing them to leave.

kbelder 3y ago

The rules state that they can.