10 ms·

Responding to Beggars

119 points by solipsist 14y ago

robocat 14y ago
I like to leave money (coins or notes) where someone who needs it may find it - under a bridge, down low where a child might find it, etc. Sure to brighten anyone's day :-) "Donating" money directly is difficult to do with respect and pride for giver and givee... I try to get it right because I feel i could end up poor, old, and drunk on the street. Some beggars strike me as being somewhat entrepreneurial :-). Try to treat each situation as unique. Occasionally I will give a beggar money for no reason, occasionally pity, occasionally random, occasionally respect. I accept sometimes I am a chump, but I would rather err on being a chump than be a selfish thoughtless jerk. When a traveller in poorer countries I become much more generous - the price of a beer at home, or a birthday card, can make a big difference for many. Any person who can fly to a 3rd world country can afford to be very generous. 1st world travellers with excuses for being tight piss me off. The difficulty is giving without demeaning the receiver ... respect.
- bhickey 14y ago
  All but one of the beggars who approached me in Kathmandu were children. If children can productively beg there is no incentive to educate them. Just send them out on the streets. It isn't a matter of being greedy. It's avoiding counterproductive behavior.
  - abhaga 14y ago
    This. In India and probably in many other countries, a lot of beggars operate under some gangs and most of their income goes to them. Especially true for beggars one sees at the traffic signals. So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. My take on this is that everyone has a different way of being most effective in helping others. To really improve their situation, a homeless person needs someone who can invest a lot more time and effort. So if you want to help them, give to charities that work with them. In our individual capacity, we are more effective in helping someone who already has a platform. Consider financing the entire education of a child. That is more effective use of the money than distributing it piecemeal to several homeless people.
    - robocat 14y ago
      > So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. I sometimes think that is just a handy excuse. I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. I often admire go-getting capitalist tourist scams or annoying vendors - at times even illegal or immoral behaviour (people take risks because they need to, not usually out of choice). Love the rest of your comment... exactly my point that we can all find ways to truely help (while avoiding ways that damage).
      - ido 14y ago
        I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. Why?
        robocat 14y ago
        Hard to explain - however I don't mean in a Schadenfreude way... E.g. vendor selling something for 10x what a local would pay. I don't haggle much and admire chutzpah. If someone steals my wallet because that is the only income they can get, I won't like it (but I am not about to go hungry, get rickets or fail to get healthcare). Obviously hard to delineate what is 'bad', or what are downstream effects.
        martincmartin 14y ago
        Perhaps you mean that they sell it for a higher price to people who have more money, and a lower price to people who have less? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
        jtheory 14y ago
        I had my wallet stolen several years ago -- I set it on the bar at a cafe momentarily while paying, and somehow left without it (maybe someone subtly laid a paper over it? maybe I was just distracted?) and it was gone when I realized about 30 seconds later and came back in. I can't say I admired the chutzpah, though. The thief took a minor risk, earned less than 20 euros, and cost me days worth of my time and more than 100x that amount of money, to replace documents I hadn't realized would be so difficult to replace (the big one: my US driver's license, and I didn't live in the US anymore; replacing the US credit cards was also non-trivial, but less expensive). The small amount of cash they got was about commensurate with the risk they took (fairly small); but the waste entailed was huge. I would much rather have been mugged and had my cash taken, and my watch as well -- i.e., items valuable to the mugger, not simply my wallet (which contained things mostly only valuable to me). Or they could have tossed the cashless wallet in a trashcan nearby. They didn't (I searched them all). The real cost to society of this kind of theft and waste is not so much monetary; it's more psychological. That experience burned into my head fairly well that there are plenty of people around who care so little about me, they'll happily take whatever they can from me, regardless of the suffering it causes. I have a suspicion that it's the series of experiences like this that turn people from political liberals to conservatives as they age -- they feed easily into racism and classism, they turn us from thinking "how can I help people who need it" to "fuck 'em -- they'll do the same to me if they could". Etc..
  - robocat 14y ago
    Sure - avoiding counter-productive behaviour is a good goal. However it is difficult to avoid condescendingly 'knowing' what is best for a child if it aligns with selfish motives, and one knows nothing about the situation... The question is how to help kids though... I have tried gifting useful stuff to local schools, once I helped teach English to a class. Leaving coins where children might find them seems good to me. Hiding small toys down low is fun too - and is suitable anywhere in the world! I feel churlish if I do not share my 1st world worth when enjoying the hospitality of other countries... but it takes some ingenuity to come up with ways to do so that are good for all involved...
meatpopsicle 14y ago
I think I'm going to apply this to my day-to-day life. I bet I'll give out less money overall, but more money to those that need it.
- pacaro 14y ago
  I've done this in the past. When I used to travel by train (and live in England) I spent a lot of time waiting at London train stations. If my train wasn't imminent and I was approached I would offer to buy the beggar a meal at any of the concessions in the station. In contrast to Stallman's experience, I was never rebuffed - occasionally asked to go outside the station to get vegetarian food (seemed reasonable to me) and once asked if I could also buy food for someones girlfriend as well (chutzpah pays!). Some of these people where interesting, some less so, just the same as any random sample of the human race. I don't find myself in those situations in my current living/working situation, but I like to keep my mind open to these possibilities
  - aptwebapps 14y ago
    If they're walking up to you on the platform and you're offering them free food of their choice (within reason), why not? Whereas if they're in a good, high-traffic, spot, they might not want to give it up for the free food. I had a guy run up to me just as I was getting on the bus to ask if I could spare fare for him too. I dug it out and handed it over and he turned around and walked off. I thought that was pretty funny, especially as the fare was a quarter.
georgieporgie 14y ago
In SF, I witnessed the classic: guy offers sandwich to 'hungry' homeless guy. Homeless guy responds, "what kind is it?" Apparently, beggars can be choosers.
- taligent 14y ago
  Did you ever think he might have had a life threatening allergy to certain foods ? It's pretty common.
  - raintrees 14y ago
    When asked for money for food a few months back, I offered to buy the guy a burrito. I asked what ingredients he wanted, he suggested no beans to make it easier on his fellow humans...
  - georgieporgie 14y ago
    Did you ever think that I was there and might have taken note of such a thing? There's a difference between "I don't eat meat" and "I don't like corned beef." Do you ever give people the benefit of the doubt, or do you always exploit omissions in order to paint the other in a negative light?
- transmit101 14y ago
  Perhaps he is a vegetarian. Being homeless doesn't require you to sacrifice your principles.
- crumblan 14y ago
  It's a psychological reaction to having very little control over anything around you to exert more control in any area you can. It's not ironically funny, it's ironically sad.
kgrin 14y ago
I was on my college debate team; the Nationals final round in 2003 was about this hypothetical ("Give a homeless person a dollar?") I was pleasantly surprised to recently find that it was taped and available online: http://www.parlidebate.com/recordings.php?id=36 http://www.parlidebate.com/recordings.php?id=36 I can't fairly condense the salient points, so I'll just encourage you to watch the video - it's long, but well worth it. I can honestly say it changed how I evaluate these sorts of situations (aside from being a very fine round of debate, but that's more of an acquired taste). (Just to be clear: I was not one of the debaters, just happened to be lucky enough to be in the audience).
- kkwok 14y ago
  Thanks for the video. Interesting round to watch--makes me miss my debate days. Which direction did it shift your views?
  - kgrin 14y ago
    In the direction of giving - either money, or if time allows, something like what Stallman is doing/advocating. The main thing that shifted my views was the notion that even if the money is "wasted" (or might be more effective dollar-for-dollar elsewhere), there's a lot to be said for the human connection - and that even if the recipient is operating under false pretenses (which does happen sometimes), that human connection is worth it.
    - Jach 14y ago
      I definitely fall on the side of the fence that actually-effective charity is superior than any "human connection" or other warm-fuzzy feeling I personally might get, though I do enjoy my warm-fuzzies every so often. I started treating them separately at some point (most likely influenced by http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_separately/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa... ) and that seemed pretty helpful in a couple ways. One trick I'm trying this year is that whenever I'm asked for cash or see a bum asking for cash and don't give any (typically because I don't want to or because I want to give less than $20 and I only have a card (and I don't want to give any time)), the next time I'm at a computer I increment a total on my home system by some small delta. It represents the total I intend to donate all at once near the end of the year to where I think has the most expected utility.
mehulkar 14y ago
This has been a huge problem for me. I recently moved to San Francisco after many years of living in the Midwest. I was born and lived the first 10 years of my life in Delhi where poverty was no big deal. It was accepted and not questioned. After living in the States and doing all the chores that someone else would normally do for me in India (dishes, laundry, etc.), it became difficult for me to see people as anything but people and I began to notice poverty. After 3 months in San Francisco, I'm noticing the pendulum swinging again in the other direction. I don't see anyone paying attention to the homeless, and I know a few pennies here or there aren't going to solve the problem, so I am once again starting to become cold and removed. I cannot stand saying no to people on the streets, but I have not found a way to get them off the streets either. I promise myself that right now is not the time, and one day I will make a difference. It feels naive and stupid to think this way. I am 22.
- awakeasleep 14y ago
  At least you're being honest with yourself. I still struggle with how to respond to these situations, and I'm almost 30. That said, I like Stallman's response. Gather more information, and act on your values. It's more human, imo.
- coryl 14y ago
  There are ways to help the homeless without giving out money. For example, volunteering at a soup kitchen, shelter, etc.
  - dspillett 14y ago
    And those things make far more difference in the long run. I never give to beggars aside from occasionally buying a "big issue". By my understanding (which I'll admit is almost entirely based on second-/third-/more-hand information and a chunk of cynicism) you can make far far more difference overall by donating to relevant charities and other such groups if you want to help financially, or (as you say) donating your time and effort to those groups by other means. [] the cynicism part comes from things like the woman who for three years now has been trying to get together the bus fair to Hull, or some years ago seeing someone who earlier had been sat on a corner begging get into a car that appeared to be his and drive away
sparknlaunch12 14y ago
Is a beggar an analogy for a startup looking for funding?
- ExpiredLink 14y ago
  and you are an angel.
  - sparknlaunch12 14y ago
    Not yet. I only asked the question in context of this article being posted to Hacker News. I thought maybe the author was describing an approach to more than just qualifying requests for money from beggars.
andywood 14y ago
I've always made this decision based strictly on whether I am feeling generous enough in the moment to give money to a stranger who asked for it. I personally find bothering oneself about what they are going to do with it to be extremely condescending, and I sometimes suspect it might be a cop-out for simply wanting to hold on to your money. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to hold on to your own money.
- sage_joch 14y ago
  From the article it's pretty clear that Stallman just didn't like the feeling of being deceived. I don't think condescension has anything to do with it. As an aside: there were two instances in the last year in which I gave a stranger in need of help $20. I analyzed the interactions in the aftermath, and I'm convinced that the first person really did need help and the second person scammed me (I can't say for sure, but when adding up all the little details, things start to ring true or false). When I realized that I had been scammed, I felt pretty raw about it. It wasn't about the money, but the fact that someone would prey on my willingness to help like that.
  - algorias 14y ago
    What I do now when I'm approached like this is asking them to return the money to me in some way (e.g. send it back in an envelope or sth). That way you get feedback and the whole thing turns into a fun little game of seeing how good a judge of character you are. Results for me have been abysmal so far though, but at least I've learned a lot about human nature in the process :p
  - AndrewDucker 14y ago
    My general feeling is that anyone who is scamming people on the streets in order to get by has real problems.
    - its_so_on 14y ago
      I'm sorry, but they have a duty to their shareholders to do whatever will maximize shareholder value, including doing marketing research and pandering to what works. Oh wait, were we talking about beggars? Nevermind, they should be held to a higher standard than the Fortune 500. They can afford it. (Billions and their own jobs aren't riding on it.)
pemulis 14y ago
For the most part, I only give money to homeless people who put out a cup or a hat and don't try to sell me on a story. I've been lied to so many times that I assume every story is a lie. I don't try to buy specific items like food or train tickets, either. I don't want to dictate what they ought to spend the money on. If they want to spend it on food or clothes, great. If they would prefer to spend it on drugs or lotto tickets, I'm not going to reverse a lifetime of bad habits by forcing them to get a sandwich. The money is theirs once I give it to them.
- cturner 14y ago
  Why would you do that? Is it because you're told to by a priest to be charitable or because your sense of guilt push you into making the world a worse place. Or sympathy? Look at the long view. It only takes a few people to keep doing that, and they'll keep existing at that level instead of finding a better way to get by. You're enabling them.
  - jeffool 14y ago
    I don't want to put words in permulis' mouth, but, I think a reasonable assumption is he's concerned of the option you don't list: They won't get by. They'll die. I think that's why a lot of people do it.
  - pemulis 14y ago
    The three main causes of homelessness in America are sudden economic misfortune, mental illness, and addiction. People in the first category are actively looking for a way to get back on their feet. Giving them money is better than giving them a meal, a ticket, or a bit of clothing. They know what they need most, and will spend their money accordingly. Insisting that they choose from my list of pre-approved spending options does more harm than good, from a utility standpoint. From an emotional standpoint, it's condescending and demeaning. In the second case, the person has few employment options and a weak support network, otherwise they would not be out on the street. They won't use the money I give them as well as people in the first category, but who am I to say what they want or need? I'm not trying to solve a social problem. I'm trying to ease the suffering of an individual. It's difficult to distinguish people in the third group from the people in the second group, since mental illness and addiction often work in tandem. I don't bother to try. Anyway, the addict's hierarchy of needs is roughly: Food > Drugs > Shelter. If I buy them a sandwich, they can spend the remainder of their money on drugs. If they're a serious addict, a lack of charity won't stand between them and the drugs they need. If they can't scrounge up enough money through legitimate means, petty crime is the next step. Overcoming addiction is a complicated process that comes from within. You can't starve the addict into going clean. If I give a homeless person a dollar and that money goes towards drugs, that's a shame, but at least it eases their suffering for a moment. Again, giving money to a homeless person isn't a long-term solution to social problems. It's a small gesture from one individual to another. They have a cut, so I give them a band-aid. Homelessness is a difficult and complicated problem. Withholding charity won't suddenly result in homeless people straightening up and flying right. The reality is that many of them, at least in the short term, are unemployable. Withholding charity just increases their suffering.
ricardobeat 14y ago
The situation is not much different here in Brazil. It's almost impossible to tell when a beggar is telling the truth or not - they have perfected their story-telling out of necessity. Once I was walking up to a friend's apartment. Just a few meters from his door, a guy with a desperate face approached and asked me to borrow some money for gas/something, so that he could get to his wife who was in the hospital (red flag). I refused, and then he proceeded to tell me the exact address he was going to, handed me his license and car keys to check. I felt ashamed for being such a cold person, and gave him ten bucks. Just as he was turning around the corner, my friend who was leaving his apt saw him and said -"did you give that guy money? He is always around" :( Never gave out money since. I try to make up for it by being very straight about taxes and civilization in general.
Jun8 14y ago
I think that in certain situations the moral question of doing or not performing an act is either a weak function of the entities we interact or is not a function of them at all. I think this is one of those cases: I would give a small amount of money (e.g. a quarter) to anyone who has to ask for it for whatever reason. I find Stallman's attitude to be condescending to extreme, i.e. "you lied to me", how can you judge that person? A similar ethical question: Should we eat animals? Some people object to this citing the misery, pain, etc. that the animals have to endure. But suppose we create a certain pig/chicken/sheep clone that is incapable of thinking (or, as in http://www.amazon.com/The-Pig-That-Wants-Eaten/dp/0452287448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Pig-That-Wants-Eaten/dp/0452287448, actually wants to be eaten): Would your attitude on this matter change? I think it should not. The way I treat entities with less power than me (homeless people, animals) wholly depends on me and not inputs from them.
- derekuser 14y ago
  How can you judge them to be needy?
  - Jun8 14y ago
    That was my whole point: I don't.
twfarland 14y ago
I never give money to beggars after having seen how they operate in Berlin. The standard ones are extremely pushy, and in areas like Ku'damm, there are organised gangs of women who bring their children with them. I've seen them converge and hand over money to a central man at the same spot day after day. He doesn't look poor.
wilfra 14y ago
In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsistence living one could imagine. This situation is so bad that the country had to pass a law giving the death penalty to anybody dismembering children for the purposes of turning them into beggars - because people were doing that on a large scale.
- Muzza 14y ago
  The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartments - an entitlement not available even to Swedish citizens, mind you. Of course, the only reasonable response is to institute a sufficiently vague law against vagrancy and then deport them.)
  - Create 14y ago
    Exporting organised crime will not solve your problems. Especially regarding the EU. http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 ...etc.
    - Muzza 14y ago
      I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?
nerdfiles 14y ago
Ask them to break a $20. What happens if they naturally learn to collect money, and we record these activities through our hearsay? If we expect them to be able to break a $20?
gbog 14y ago
I never give, I pay, for example I'll pay to the one who play nice music. I don't pay to soften culpability either, I handle this myself. My preferred way to fix the poverty issue is to participate in this kind of economy: I prefer giving a good salary to a nanny coming from countryside than giving random bucks to those who earned a pithy price in the streets.
AndrewDucker 14y ago
I give money to Shelter, a British charity which helps homeless people. I figure they're the experts, and can put the money to the best use.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
lisper 14y ago
My experience trying to get a homeless person off the street: http://graceofgodmovie.com/ http://graceofgodmovie.com/ Available on iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/but-for-the-grace-of-god/id469930988 http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/but-for-the-grace-of-god/id... If you watch it and like it please write a review.
- shawndumas 14y ago
  Been there done that. I have actually helped a man get off of alcohol and street, securing him a job and a place to live; only to have him go back to the streets: Twice.
jurre 14y ago
I have tried this approach for a while and not once did a beggar accept the proposal. A couple of times when I didn't have cash on me I got cursed at and since then I stopped giving to them. I should also mention that I'm from the Netherlands and no one here needs to be homeless, it's always because of drug addiction.
- prawn 14y ago
  Or mental illness?
  - jurre 14y ago
    I don't think so, those are taken care of by our government afaik.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    I don't know about Netherlands, but in UK there's a complex mix of substance misuse and mental illness amongst the homeless population. It's difficult to know which causes what. In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars.
    - aes256 14y ago
      > In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars. The situation in the UK is somewhat unique. As you mention, homelessness is not really an issue. All homeless people are entitled to benefits to cover accommodation and food. Unfortunately people still tend to associate begging with homelessness, when the link between the two is tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of beggars are not actually homeless, and most are begging to fund a drug addition (see: http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/giving-to-beggars/ http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...) There really is no need for anyone in the UK to beg in order to survive, hence why begging in public is illegal.
SagelyGuru 14y ago
I wonder if modern enterpreneurs are recruiting their marketing staff from the ranks of these street scammers. Many scammers are masters of the art of salesmanship: telling people what they want to hear in order to get them to part with their money. I find it hard to distinguish between their methods, the only substantial difference being much larger turnover for the 'respectable' marketing and advertising experts.
cturner 14y ago
I don't think there's much you can do to help someone on the street in a way that gets them off the street. That's not to say that nothing can be done, just that the initiative has to come from the person on the street to get out of that pattern. I can't remember where I got it from, but I carry a pack of cigarettes around. When I get asked for change, I remember to offer the person a cigarette instead. If you're on the street then lung cancer is the least of your problems, and it's a way of showing support to the person but in a way that doesn't contribute to their pattern. Our culture has some strong messages about charity and a taboo about questioning it. People tend to give to things that are branded as charity in order to comply with this message. The result can often be an office full of people in a nice location, pulling down wages, and doing very little meaningful work towards the cause. It is itself a variation on the deceptive begging pattern, feeding on popular ideas about charity. I think the best approach for helping people is to look out for things directly in your sphere where you can see how your action will lead to a goood result, and then act at that level.
yukyukyuk 14y ago
Ah, the poor. More than one way to respond to them. One of my favorite parts of the bible, Jesus Christ being an enormous douche bag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus. But I came here to say that whatever you think about Stallman, the fact that he is just so ....... crazy is what is so amazing about him. And it isn't like the crazy is random, it is part of this elaborate system. Just like Communism---completely messed up, but in a pathological way, not just random.
twinturbo 14y ago
I love how this page has no styling information. Just times new roman on a white background. User agent stylesheet ftw.
paulsutter 14y ago
For me it isn't a question of being duped or scammed. It's a question of whether the gift is really going to help them. It turns out this is a very difficult question. When you give money to a beggar, you are saying "great job! here's a bonus to encourage you to keep begging!". At the same time, these are usually people who are in need. I also know that substance abuse is close to certain. I don't have a good answer. Most of the time I give nothing. Occasionally I'll hand a guy a 20, without regard for his story or whether I'm being scammed. It's a gift given freely. What I know for sure is that I can be polite to them. Recognize them as humans, not treat them as lepers. If they engage me in conversation ask their name, where they are from. But usually ignore them on the ask. Because I can't rationalize that it would help. But it's not an easy question.
jawns 14y ago
I know how important Richard Stallman is to the tech community, and I appreciate his tech-oriented stuff ... but I'm kinda getting bored with seeing his LiveJournal posts on the HN homepage.
- photon137 14y ago
  Well, there are a lot of others nowhere near as influential as RMS whose "LiveJornal"-esque posts about "entrepreneurship" - a la: How I made $2 million from $2 - regularly make the HN homepage. I could live with the former (and for once, RMS is making sense).
jakobe 14y ago
When someone asks me for money, I just give them money. I dont care what they do with it. I think people complaining about being deceived are just looking for excuses for being greedy. The end result is the same, no matter if the beggar is honest or not: i'm more happy because I feel generous, the beggar's more happy because he got money. The first time I relised that the story I got told was a lie I was upset, but I realised that it doesn't matter.
- radu_floricica 14y ago
  And this is why I hate begging so much. It's a transaction - the beggar gets the money, you get the feeling good. But try to take this to its logical conclusion in a free market situation and you'll understand why the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I've seen a little girl being taught to beg once. She was as beautiful and clean as a young girl can be, and she was with a slightly older boy in a subway. He was leading her by the hand and showing her the ropes... what to say, how to say it, how to act... Most people there thought that it was so very charming and paid well for the feeling. All I did was to try hard as I could not to hit something or somebody, because I was watching a soul being mutilated.
- twelvechairs 14y ago
  Thats great of you :) I agree completely. I don't think we should believe that we have the right to judge others just because they are poorer than ourselves. Too many people do. Even if they use my money to drink themselves into oblivion, thats their choice and I'm happy that I can provide them with the means to do whatever they want with their lives. That said, I do prefer to give to certain types of people. It can be hard to really tell how needy someone is, but generally I don't give to children (this encourages parents to not send them to school), those who occupy prime locations (main street, outside a supermerket etc. - as I've seen these being worked by groups who muscle others out of their patch - and besides they make plenty of money from others there), and those who hassle every passing stranger.
- corry 14y ago
  I guess some people's problem is that we "care what [the beggars] do with it" when we give money. i.e. I don't want to give someone money that they'll use to further destroy their life with drugs/alcohol/whatever. I don't want to be complicit in that action. If that's too 'morally' or 'judgemental' for some people, so be it. Now, I'm more than happy to buy them some food, transportation, etc. Or even better, spend some time with them (when possible) and treat them like a real person for a few minutes.
shocks 14y ago
In the UK we have The Big Issue. It's a magazine only sold by homeless people, for £2.50 per magazine. The sellers buy each magazine for £1.25. The sellers are trained, sign a code of conduct and wear badges so you can recognise them easily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue I like this approach because I know that they have some degree of control. For example, they can't spend all the money on booze/drugs because otherwise they can't purchase more stock. It's a start. That said, I like Stallman's method. I might try that sometime.
- dorian-graph 14y ago
  They do this too in Australia and out of those who I see regularly in the CBD I don't mind them as they're usually friendly and honest. The idea of getting them work, as small as selling magazines is, is a great idea. I personally follow a similar approach to Stallman here in Australia and I agree that it definitely is hard when you go to another country. I spent two years in the Philippines where poverty is common and at first I had no real idea what to do as we were constantly being asked for money, every day. Another idea I stand by is not too judge too quickly the homeless or so in saying "Oh, they'd just go spend it on drugs or alcohol."
- makmanalp 14y ago
  In the Boston / Cambridge area where Stallman is talking about, we have "Spare Change": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spare_Change_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spare_Change_News There just are more homeless people that gather there than can viably all sell the newspaper.
no_more_death 14y ago
I keep a couple of gift cards in my wallet and hand them out if someone's in trouble. I tell them there's money on it but not how much. Obviously, someone could still sell the gift card, but the buyer will have to take him at his word.
captaincrunch 14y ago
Tickets, food and anything else is always almost refundable, so in most cases, it would have been cheaper to have given them a quarter, even a dollar.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
mark_l_watson 14y ago
I used to do the same thing while I was commuting to San Francisco to do an expert system for PacBell. Lots of homeless people begging and the people I worked with lectured me on not giving them money. That was in my pre-vegetarian days and I had a serious hamburger addiction; occasionally when I bought a hamburger, I would buy a second one to hand to an apparently homeless person.
mistercow 14y ago
I really don't understand why people care so much what the beggar uses the money for. Give him a dollar, or don't. If you do, don't worry that he might use it to buy booze; just feel good that you did something nice for someone. If you don't, don't try to justify it to yourself by saying he might be a liar. Just say "I have the right to not give beggars money because it's my money" and be done with it. There, I solved all of your altruism problems. You're welcome.
lucian1900 14y ago
My mom taught me never to give money to beggars, only ever give them food. Seemed entirely logical.
mikeash 14y ago
I have seen enough professional beggars who live well that I pretty much just assume that they're just about all like that. It seems that if you're good at it, you can make quite a bit of money. And this is hardly new: there's even a Sherlock Holmes story that revolves around a man who gives up his profession to become a beggar because the money is better. If you feel guilty (and why wouldn't you? it's only natural), give money to charitable organizations which help the homeless. They know how to put the money to better use.
zaccus 14y ago
Some panhandlers really need money, and some don't. There's no way to know for sure which is which, and I can't afford to give money to everyone who asks for it. So the only "rational" solution is to not give money to panhandlers at all. Of course, I don't follow that rule perfectly because saying no or ignoring somebody makes me feel like a dick. But I'm not going to pretend that giving money to a panhandler is ever a rational act.
spung 14y ago
This is what my parents have taught me to do as well. It's also a possibility though that the beggar wanted to be efficient and accumulate more money for other fares throughout the day, just trying to be efficient.

119 points by solipsist 14y ago

I like to leave money (coins or notes) where someone who needs it may find it - under a bridge, down low where a child might find it, etc. Sure to brighten anyone's day :-) "Donating" money directly is difficult to do with respect and pride for giver and givee... I try to get it right because I feel i could end up poor, old, and drunk on the street. Some beggars strike me as being somewhat entrepreneurial :-). Try to treat each situation as unique. Occasionally I will give a beggar money for no reason, occasionally pity, occasionally random, occasionally respect. I accept sometimes I am a chump, but I would rather err on being a chump than be a selfish thoughtless jerk. When a traveller in poorer countries I become much more generous - the price of a beer at home, or a birthday card, can make a big difference for many. Any person who can fly to a 3rd world country can afford to be very generous. 1st world travellers with excuses for being tight piss me off. The difficulty is giving without demeaning the receiver ... respect.

bhickey 14y ago
All but one of the beggars who approached me in Kathmandu were children. If children can productively beg there is no incentive to educate them. Just send them out on the streets. It isn't a matter of being greedy. It's avoiding counterproductive behavior.
- abhaga 14y ago
  This. In India and probably in many other countries, a lot of beggars operate under some gangs and most of their income goes to them. Especially true for beggars one sees at the traffic signals. So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. My take on this is that everyone has a different way of being most effective in helping others. To really improve their situation, a homeless person needs someone who can invest a lot more time and effort. So if you want to help them, give to charities that work with them. In our individual capacity, we are more effective in helping someone who already has a platform. Consider financing the entire education of a child. That is more effective use of the money than distributing it piecemeal to several homeless people.
  - robocat 14y ago
    > So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. I sometimes think that is just a handy excuse. I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. I often admire go-getting capitalist tourist scams or annoying vendors - at times even illegal or immoral behaviour (people take risks because they need to, not usually out of choice). Love the rest of your comment... exactly my point that we can all find ways to truely help (while avoiding ways that damage).
    - ido 14y ago
      I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. Why?
      - robocat 14y ago
        Hard to explain - however I don't mean in a Schadenfreude way... E.g. vendor selling something for 10x what a local would pay. I don't haggle much and admire chutzpah. If someone steals my wallet because that is the only income they can get, I won't like it (but I am not about to go hungry, get rickets or fail to get healthcare). Obviously hard to delineate what is 'bad', or what are downstream effects.
        martincmartin 14y ago
        Perhaps you mean that they sell it for a higher price to people who have more money, and a lower price to people who have less? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination
        jtheory 14y ago
        I had my wallet stolen several years ago -- I set it on the bar at a cafe momentarily while paying, and somehow left without it (maybe someone subtly laid a paper over it? maybe I was just distracted?) and it was gone when I realized about 30 seconds later and came back in. I can't say I admired the chutzpah, though. The thief took a minor risk, earned less than 20 euros, and cost me days worth of my time and more than 100x that amount of money, to replace documents I hadn't realized would be so difficult to replace (the big one: my US driver's license, and I didn't live in the US anymore; replacing the US credit cards was also non-trivial, but less expensive). The small amount of cash they got was about commensurate with the risk they took (fairly small); but the waste entailed was huge. I would much rather have been mugged and had my cash taken, and my watch as well -- i.e., items valuable to the mugger, not simply my wallet (which contained things mostly only valuable to me). Or they could have tossed the cashless wallet in a trashcan nearby. They didn't (I searched them all). The real cost to society of this kind of theft and waste is not so much monetary; it's more psychological. That experience burned into my head fairly well that there are plenty of people around who care so little about me, they'll happily take whatever they can from me, regardless of the suffering it causes. I have a suspicion that it's the series of experiences like this that turn people from political liberals to conservatives as they age -- they feed easily into racism and classism, they turn us from thinking "how can I help people who need it" to "fuck 'em -- they'll do the same to me if they could". Etc..
- robocat 14y ago
  Sure - avoiding counter-productive behaviour is a good goal. However it is difficult to avoid condescendingly 'knowing' what is best for a child if it aligns with selfish motives, and one knows nothing about the situation... The question is how to help kids though... I have tried gifting useful stuff to local schools, once I helped teach English to a class. Leaving coins where children might find them seems good to me. Hiding small toys down low is fun too - and is suitable anywhere in the world! I feel churlish if I do not share my 1st world worth when enjoying the hospitality of other countries... but it takes some ingenuity to come up with ways to do so that are good for all involved...

meatpopsicle 14y ago

I think I'm going to apply this to my day-to-day life. I bet I'll give out less money overall, but more money to those that need it.

pacaro 14y ago
I've done this in the past. When I used to travel by train (and live in England) I spent a lot of time waiting at London train stations. If my train wasn't imminent and I was approached I would offer to buy the beggar a meal at any of the concessions in the station. In contrast to Stallman's experience, I was never rebuffed - occasionally asked to go outside the station to get vegetarian food (seemed reasonable to me) and once asked if I could also buy food for someones girlfriend as well (chutzpah pays!). Some of these people where interesting, some less so, just the same as any random sample of the human race. I don't find myself in those situations in my current living/working situation, but I like to keep my mind open to these possibilities
- aptwebapps 14y ago
  If they're walking up to you on the platform and you're offering them free food of their choice (within reason), why not? Whereas if they're in a good, high-traffic, spot, they might not want to give it up for the free food. I had a guy run up to me just as I was getting on the bus to ask if I could spare fare for him too. I dug it out and handed it over and he turned around and walked off. I thought that was pretty funny, especially as the fare was a quarter.

georgieporgie 14y ago

In SF, I witnessed the classic: guy offers sandwich to 'hungry' homeless guy. Homeless guy responds, "what kind is it?" Apparently, beggars can be choosers.

taligent 14y ago
Did you ever think he might have had a life threatening allergy to certain foods ? It's pretty common.
- raintrees 14y ago
  When asked for money for food a few months back, I offered to buy the guy a burrito. I asked what ingredients he wanted, he suggested no beans to make it easier on his fellow humans...
- georgieporgie 14y ago
  Did you ever think that I was there and might have taken note of such a thing? There's a difference between "I don't eat meat" and "I don't like corned beef." Do you ever give people the benefit of the doubt, or do you always exploit omissions in order to paint the other in a negative light?
transmit101 14y ago
Perhaps he is a vegetarian. Being homeless doesn't require you to sacrifice your principles.
crumblan 14y ago
It's a psychological reaction to having very little control over anything around you to exert more control in any area you can. It's not ironically funny, it's ironically sad.

kgrin 14y ago

I was on my college debate team; the Nationals final round in 2003 was about this hypothetical ("Give a homeless person a dollar?") I was pleasantly surprised to recently find that it was taped and available online: http://www.parlidebate.com/recordings.php?id=36 http://www.parlidebate.com/recordings.php?id=36 I can't fairly condense the salient points, so I'll just encourage you to watch the video - it's long, but well worth it. I can honestly say it changed how I evaluate these sorts of situations (aside from being a very fine round of debate, but that's more of an acquired taste). (Just to be clear: I was not one of the debaters, just happened to be lucky enough to be in the audience).

kkwok 14y ago
Thanks for the video. Interesting round to watch--makes me miss my debate days. Which direction did it shift your views?
- kgrin 14y ago
  In the direction of giving - either money, or if time allows, something like what Stallman is doing/advocating. The main thing that shifted my views was the notion that even if the money is "wasted" (or might be more effective dollar-for-dollar elsewhere), there's a lot to be said for the human connection - and that even if the recipient is operating under false pretenses (which does happen sometimes), that human connection is worth it.
  - Jach 14y ago
    I definitely fall on the side of the fence that actually-effective charity is superior than any "human connection" or other warm-fuzzy feeling I personally might get, though I do enjoy my warm-fuzzies every so often. I started treating them separately at some point (most likely influenced by http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_separately/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa... ) and that seemed pretty helpful in a couple ways. One trick I'm trying this year is that whenever I'm asked for cash or see a bum asking for cash and don't give any (typically because I don't want to or because I want to give less than $20 and I only have a card (and I don't want to give any time)), the next time I'm at a computer I increment a total on my home system by some small delta. It represents the total I intend to donate all at once near the end of the year to where I think has the most expected utility.

mehulkar 14y ago

This has been a huge problem for me. I recently moved to San Francisco after many years of living in the Midwest. I was born and lived the first 10 years of my life in Delhi where poverty was no big deal. It was accepted and not questioned. After living in the States and doing all the chores that someone else would normally do for me in India (dishes, laundry, etc.), it became difficult for me to see people as anything but people and I began to notice poverty. After 3 months in San Francisco, I'm noticing the pendulum swinging again in the other direction. I don't see anyone paying attention to the homeless, and I know a few pennies here or there aren't going to solve the problem, so I am once again starting to become cold and removed. I cannot stand saying no to people on the streets, but I have not found a way to get them off the streets either. I promise myself that right now is not the time, and one day I will make a difference. It feels naive and stupid to think this way. I am 22.

awakeasleep 14y ago
At least you're being honest with yourself. I still struggle with how to respond to these situations, and I'm almost 30. That said, I like Stallman's response. Gather more information, and act on your values. It's more human, imo.
coryl 14y ago
There are ways to help the homeless without giving out money. For example, volunteering at a soup kitchen, shelter, etc.
- dspillett 14y ago
  And those things make far more difference in the long run. I never give to beggars aside from occasionally buying a "big issue". By my understanding (which I'll admit is almost entirely based on second-/third-/more-hand information and a chunk of cynicism) you can make far far more difference overall by donating to relevant charities and other such groups if you want to help financially, or (as you say) donating your time and effort to those groups by other means. [] the cynicism part comes from things like the woman who for three years now has been trying to get together the bus fair to Hull, or some years ago seeing someone who earlier had been sat on a corner begging get into a car that appeared to be his and drive away

sparknlaunch12 14y ago

Is a beggar an analogy for a startup looking for funding?

ExpiredLink 14y ago
and you are an angel.
- sparknlaunch12 14y ago
  Not yet. I only asked the question in context of this article being posted to Hacker News. I thought maybe the author was describing an approach to more than just qualifying requests for money from beggars.

andywood 14y ago

I've always made this decision based strictly on whether I am feeling generous enough in the moment to give money to a stranger who asked for it. I personally find bothering oneself about what they are going to do with it to be extremely condescending, and I sometimes suspect it might be a cop-out for simply wanting to hold on to your money. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to hold on to your own money.

sage_joch 14y ago
From the article it's pretty clear that Stallman just didn't like the feeling of being deceived. I don't think condescension has anything to do with it. As an aside: there were two instances in the last year in which I gave a stranger in need of help $20. I analyzed the interactions in the aftermath, and I'm convinced that the first person really did need help and the second person scammed me (I can't say for sure, but when adding up all the little details, things start to ring true or false). When I realized that I had been scammed, I felt pretty raw about it. It wasn't about the money, but the fact that someone would prey on my willingness to help like that.
- algorias 14y ago
  What I do now when I'm approached like this is asking them to return the money to me in some way (e.g. send it back in an envelope or sth). That way you get feedback and the whole thing turns into a fun little game of seeing how good a judge of character you are. Results for me have been abysmal so far though, but at least I've learned a lot about human nature in the process :p
- AndrewDucker 14y ago
  My general feeling is that anyone who is scamming people on the streets in order to get by has real problems.
  - its_so_on 14y ago
    I'm sorry, but they have a duty to their shareholders to do whatever will maximize shareholder value, including doing marketing research and pandering to what works. Oh wait, were we talking about beggars? Nevermind, they should be held to a higher standard than the Fortune 500. They can afford it. (Billions and their own jobs aren't riding on it.)

pemulis 14y ago

For the most part, I only give money to homeless people who put out a cup or a hat and don't try to sell me on a story. I've been lied to so many times that I assume every story is a lie. I don't try to buy specific items like food or train tickets, either. I don't want to dictate what they ought to spend the money on. If they want to spend it on food or clothes, great. If they would prefer to spend it on drugs or lotto tickets, I'm not going to reverse a lifetime of bad habits by forcing them to get a sandwich. The money is theirs once I give it to them.

cturner 14y ago
Why would you do that? Is it because you're told to by a priest to be charitable or because your sense of guilt push you into making the world a worse place. Or sympathy? Look at the long view. It only takes a few people to keep doing that, and they'll keep existing at that level instead of finding a better way to get by. You're enabling them.
- jeffool 14y ago
  I don't want to put words in permulis' mouth, but, I think a reasonable assumption is he's concerned of the option you don't list: They won't get by. They'll die. I think that's why a lot of people do it.
- pemulis 14y ago
  The three main causes of homelessness in America are sudden economic misfortune, mental illness, and addiction. People in the first category are actively looking for a way to get back on their feet. Giving them money is better than giving them a meal, a ticket, or a bit of clothing. They know what they need most, and will spend their money accordingly. Insisting that they choose from my list of pre-approved spending options does more harm than good, from a utility standpoint. From an emotional standpoint, it's condescending and demeaning. In the second case, the person has few employment options and a weak support network, otherwise they would not be out on the street. They won't use the money I give them as well as people in the first category, but who am I to say what they want or need? I'm not trying to solve a social problem. I'm trying to ease the suffering of an individual. It's difficult to distinguish people in the third group from the people in the second group, since mental illness and addiction often work in tandem. I don't bother to try. Anyway, the addict's hierarchy of needs is roughly: Food > Drugs > Shelter. If I buy them a sandwich, they can spend the remainder of their money on drugs. If they're a serious addict, a lack of charity won't stand between them and the drugs they need. If they can't scrounge up enough money through legitimate means, petty crime is the next step. Overcoming addiction is a complicated process that comes from within. You can't starve the addict into going clean. If I give a homeless person a dollar and that money goes towards drugs, that's a shame, but at least it eases their suffering for a moment. Again, giving money to a homeless person isn't a long-term solution to social problems. It's a small gesture from one individual to another. They have a cut, so I give them a band-aid. Homelessness is a difficult and complicated problem. Withholding charity won't suddenly result in homeless people straightening up and flying right. The reality is that many of them, at least in the short term, are unemployable. Withholding charity just increases their suffering.

ricardobeat 14y ago

The situation is not much different here in Brazil. It's almost impossible to tell when a beggar is telling the truth or not - they have perfected their story-telling out of necessity. Once I was walking up to a friend's apartment. Just a few meters from his door, a guy with a desperate face approached and asked me to borrow some money for gas/something, so that he could get to his wife who was in the hospital (red flag). I refused, and then he proceeded to tell me the exact address he was going to, handed me his license and car keys to check. I felt ashamed for being such a cold person, and gave him ten bucks. Just as he was turning around the corner, my friend who was leaving his apt saw him and said -"did you give that guy money? He is always around" :( Never gave out money since. I try to make up for it by being very straight about taxes and civilization in general.

Jun8 14y ago

I think that in certain situations the moral question of doing or not performing an act is either a weak function of the entities we interact or is not a function of them at all. I think this is one of those cases: I would give a small amount of money (e.g. a quarter) to anyone who has to ask for it for whatever reason. I find Stallman's attitude to be condescending to extreme, i.e. "you lied to me", how can you judge that person? A similar ethical question: Should we eat animals? Some people object to this citing the misery, pain, etc. that the animals have to endure. But suppose we create a certain pig/chicken/sheep clone that is incapable of thinking (or, as in http://www.amazon.com/The-Pig-That-Wants-Eaten/dp/0452287448 http://www.amazon.com/The-Pig-That-Wants-Eaten/dp/0452287448, actually wants to be eaten): Would your attitude on this matter change? I think it should not. The way I treat entities with less power than me (homeless people, animals) wholly depends on me and not inputs from them.

derekuser 14y ago
How can you judge them to be needy?
- Jun8 14y ago
  That was my whole point: I don't.

twfarland 14y ago

I never give money to beggars after having seen how they operate in Berlin. The standard ones are extremely pushy, and in areas like Ku'damm, there are organised gangs of women who bring their children with them. I've seen them converge and hand over money to a central man at the same spot day after day. He doesn't look poor.

wilfra 14y ago

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsistence living one could imagine. This situation is so bad that the country had to pass a law giving the death penalty to anybody dismembering children for the purposes of turning them into beggars - because people were doing that on a large scale.

Muzza 14y ago
The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartments - an entitlement not available even to Swedish citizens, mind you. Of course, the only reasonable response is to institute a sufficiently vague law against vagrancy and then deport them.)
- Create 14y ago
  Exporting organised crime will not solve your problems. Especially regarding the EU. http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/ http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 http://www.economist.com/node/6919139 ...etc.
  - Muzza 14y ago
    I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?

nerdfiles 14y ago

Ask them to break a $20. What happens if they naturally learn to collect money, and we record these activities through our hearsay? If we expect them to be able to break a $20?

gbog 14y ago

I never give, I pay, for example I'll pay to the one who play nice music. I don't pay to soften culpability either, I handle this myself. My preferred way to fix the poverty issue is to participate in this kind of economy: I prefer giving a good salary to a nanny coming from countryside than giving random bucks to those who earned a pithy price in the streets.

AndrewDucker 14y ago

I give money to Shelter, a British charity which helps homeless people. I figure they're the experts, and can put the money to the best use.

deleted 14y ago

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lisper 14y ago

My experience trying to get a homeless person off the street: http://graceofgodmovie.com/ http://graceofgodmovie.com/ Available on iTunes: http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/but-for-the-grace-of-god/id469930988 http://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/but-for-the-grace-of-god/id... If you watch it and like it please write a review.

shawndumas 14y ago
Been there done that. I have actually helped a man get off of alcohol and street, securing him a job and a place to live; only to have him go back to the streets: Twice.

jurre 14y ago

I have tried this approach for a while and not once did a beggar accept the proposal. A couple of times when I didn't have cash on me I got cursed at and since then I stopped giving to them. I should also mention that I'm from the Netherlands and no one here needs to be homeless, it's always because of drug addiction.

prawn 14y ago
Or mental illness?
- jurre 14y ago
  I don't think so, those are taken care of by our government afaik.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I don't know about Netherlands, but in UK there's a complex mix of substance misuse and mental illness amongst the homeless population. It's difficult to know which causes what. In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars.
  - aes256 14y ago
    > In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars. The situation in the UK is somewhat unique. As you mention, homelessness is not really an issue. All homeless people are entitled to benefits to cover accommodation and food. Unfortunately people still tend to associate begging with homelessness, when the link between the two is tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of beggars are not actually homeless, and most are begging to fund a drug addition (see: http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/giving-to-beggars/ http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...) There really is no need for anyone in the UK to beg in order to survive, hence why begging in public is illegal.

SagelyGuru 14y ago

I wonder if modern enterpreneurs are recruiting their marketing staff from the ranks of these street scammers. Many scammers are masters of the art of salesmanship: telling people what they want to hear in order to get them to part with their money. I find it hard to distinguish between their methods, the only substantial difference being much larger turnover for the 'respectable' marketing and advertising experts.

cturner 14y ago

I don't think there's much you can do to help someone on the street in a way that gets them off the street. That's not to say that nothing can be done, just that the initiative has to come from the person on the street to get out of that pattern. I can't remember where I got it from, but I carry a pack of cigarettes around. When I get asked for change, I remember to offer the person a cigarette instead. If you're on the street then lung cancer is the least of your problems, and it's a way of showing support to the person but in a way that doesn't contribute to their pattern. Our culture has some strong messages about charity and a taboo about questioning it. People tend to give to things that are branded as charity in order to comply with this message. The result can often be an office full of people in a nice location, pulling down wages, and doing very little meaningful work towards the cause. It is itself a variation on the deceptive begging pattern, feeding on popular ideas about charity. I think the best approach for helping people is to look out for things directly in your sphere where you can see how your action will lead to a goood result, and then act at that level.

yukyukyuk 14y ago

Ah, the poor. More than one way to respond to them. One of my favorite parts of the bible, Jesus Christ being an enormous douche bag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus. But I came here to say that whatever you think about Stallman, the fact that he is just so ....... crazy is what is so amazing about him. And it isn't like the crazy is random, it is part of this elaborate system. Just like Communism---completely messed up, but in a pathological way, not just random.

twinturbo 14y ago

I love how this page has no styling information. Just times new roman on a white background. User agent stylesheet ftw.

paulsutter 14y ago

For me it isn't a question of being duped or scammed. It's a question of whether the gift is really going to help them. It turns out this is a very difficult question. When you give money to a beggar, you are saying "great job! here's a bonus to encourage you to keep begging!". At the same time, these are usually people who are in need. I also know that substance abuse is close to certain. I don't have a good answer. Most of the time I give nothing. Occasionally I'll hand a guy a 20, without regard for his story or whether I'm being scammed. It's a gift given freely. What I know for sure is that I can be polite to them. Recognize them as humans, not treat them as lepers. If they engage me in conversation ask their name, where they are from. But usually ignore them on the ask. Because I can't rationalize that it would help. But it's not an easy question.

jawns 14y ago

I know how important Richard Stallman is to the tech community, and I appreciate his tech-oriented stuff ... but I'm kinda getting bored with seeing his LiveJournal posts on the HN homepage.

photon137 14y ago
Well, there are a lot of others nowhere near as influential as RMS whose "LiveJornal"-esque posts about "entrepreneurship" - a la: How I made $2 million from $2 - regularly make the HN homepage. I could live with the former (and for once, RMS is making sense).

jakobe 14y ago

When someone asks me for money, I just give them money. I dont care what they do with it. I think people complaining about being deceived are just looking for excuses for being greedy. The end result is the same, no matter if the beggar is honest or not: i'm more happy because I feel generous, the beggar's more happy because he got money. The first time I relised that the story I got told was a lie I was upset, but I realised that it doesn't matter.

radu_floricica 14y ago
And this is why I hate begging so much. It's a transaction - the beggar gets the money, you get the feeling good. But try to take this to its logical conclusion in a free market situation and you'll understand why the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I've seen a little girl being taught to beg once. She was as beautiful and clean as a young girl can be, and she was with a slightly older boy in a subway. He was leading her by the hand and showing her the ropes... what to say, how to say it, how to act... Most people there thought that it was so very charming and paid well for the feeling. All I did was to try hard as I could not to hit something or somebody, because I was watching a soul being mutilated.
twelvechairs 14y ago
Thats great of you :) I agree completely. I don't think we should believe that we have the right to judge others just because they are poorer than ourselves. Too many people do. Even if they use my money to drink themselves into oblivion, thats their choice and I'm happy that I can provide them with the means to do whatever they want with their lives. That said, I do prefer to give to certain types of people. It can be hard to really tell how needy someone is, but generally I don't give to children (this encourages parents to not send them to school), those who occupy prime locations (main street, outside a supermerket etc. - as I've seen these being worked by groups who muscle others out of their patch - and besides they make plenty of money from others there), and those who hassle every passing stranger.
corry 14y ago
I guess some people's problem is that we "care what [the beggars] do with it" when we give money. i.e. I don't want to give someone money that they'll use to further destroy their life with drugs/alcohol/whatever. I don't want to be complicit in that action. If that's too 'morally' or 'judgemental' for some people, so be it. Now, I'm more than happy to buy them some food, transportation, etc. Or even better, spend some time with them (when possible) and treat them like a real person for a few minutes.

shocks 14y ago

In the UK we have The Big Issue. It's a magazine only sold by homeless people, for £2.50 per magazine. The sellers buy each magazine for £1.25. The sellers are trained, sign a code of conduct and wear badges so you can recognise them easily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue I like this approach because I know that they have some degree of control. For example, they can't spend all the money on booze/drugs because otherwise they can't purchase more stock. It's a start. That said, I like Stallman's method. I might try that sometime.

dorian-graph 14y ago
They do this too in Australia and out of those who I see regularly in the CBD I don't mind them as they're usually friendly and honest. The idea of getting them work, as small as selling magazines is, is a great idea. I personally follow a similar approach to Stallman here in Australia and I agree that it definitely is hard when you go to another country. I spent two years in the Philippines where poverty is common and at first I had no real idea what to do as we were constantly being asked for money, every day. Another idea I stand by is not too judge too quickly the homeless or so in saying "Oh, they'd just go spend it on drugs or alcohol."
makmanalp 14y ago
In the Boston / Cambridge area where Stallman is talking about, we have "Spare Change": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spare_Change_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spare_Change_News There just are more homeless people that gather there than can viably all sell the newspaper.

no_more_death 14y ago

I keep a couple of gift cards in my wallet and hand them out if someone's in trouble. I tell them there's money on it but not how much. Obviously, someone could still sell the gift card, but the buyer will have to take him at his word.

captaincrunch 14y ago

Tickets, food and anything else is always almost refundable, so in most cases, it would have been cheaper to have given them a quarter, even a dollar.

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mark_l_watson 14y ago

I used to do the same thing while I was commuting to San Francisco to do an expert system for PacBell. Lots of homeless people begging and the people I worked with lectured me on not giving them money. That was in my pre-vegetarian days and I had a serious hamburger addiction; occasionally when I bought a hamburger, I would buy a second one to hand to an apparently homeless person.

mistercow 14y ago

I really don't understand why people care so much what the beggar uses the money for. Give him a dollar, or don't. If you do, don't worry that he might use it to buy booze; just feel good that you did something nice for someone. If you don't, don't try to justify it to yourself by saying he might be a liar. Just say "I have the right to not give beggars money because it's my money" and be done with it. There, I solved all of your altruism problems. You're welcome.

lucian1900 14y ago

My mom taught me never to give money to beggars, only ever give them food. Seemed entirely logical.

mikeash 14y ago

I have seen enough professional beggars who live well that I pretty much just assume that they're just about all like that. It seems that if you're good at it, you can make quite a bit of money. And this is hardly new: there's even a Sherlock Holmes story that revolves around a man who gives up his profession to become a beggar because the money is better. If you feel guilty (and why wouldn't you? it's only natural), give money to charitable organizations which help the homeless. They know how to put the money to better use.

zaccus 14y ago

Some panhandlers really need money, and some don't. There's no way to know for sure which is which, and I can't afford to give money to everyone who asks for it. So the only "rational" solution is to not give money to panhandlers at all. Of course, I don't follow that rule perfectly because saying no or ignoring somebody makes me feel like a dick. But I'm not going to pretend that giving money to a panhandler is ever a rational act.

spung 14y ago

This is what my parents have taught me to do as well. It's also a possibility though that the beggar wanted to be efficient and accumulate more money for other fares throughout the day, just trying to be efficient.