6 ms·

I'm an EU citizen living in the US. I'm pretty sure this is a violation of my rights. Do I have standing to sue?

by malermeister 3y ago

lobsterthief 3y ago
No, because the EU has no jurisdiction in the US.
- malermeister 3y ago
  The EU has jurisdiction over EU citizens.
  - yau8edq12i 3y ago
    ... No. It has jurisdiction in the EU. Just like Americans cannot come here and exercise random rights that the US legislator decided to grant that the EU hasn't. Try to carry a gun in public in Germany and see how that works out for you, for example.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      They do have jurisdiction in the EU, like you say. Apple exists in the EU. In the case of GDPR compliance it is trickier because you can easily end up doing business with entities that will never be in the EU, so while the EU might think their laws apply worldwide, the extent to which you “have” EU rights as an EU citizen in any enforceable way is questionable. Apple wants to do business in the EU, so the EU can write whatever laws they want, including laws that govern Apple’s worldwide behavior.
      - yau8edq12i 3y ago
        Article 3(2) is crystal clear. The GDPR applies to activities who target subjects in the union, or controllers and processors established in the union. Apple has an establishment in the EU specifically so that, when it processes the data of subjects outside the EU, it's a different legal entity not established in the EU who is acting. This includes EU citizens who are not in the EU right now. I know it's a long document, but if you have any doubts, read this: https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guidelines/guidelines-32018-territorial-scope-gdpr-article-3-version_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guid... I cannot possibly summarize dozens of pages of regulation in an HN comment, so it'll be beneficial for everyone if we all start with the same knowledge.
        bee_rider 3y ago
        Examples 9 and 14 seem pretty odd, the US and the Turkish company don’t have any presence in the EU. They can break the laws of the EU in the sense that I can break the laws of China or Saudi Arabia; I’m not going there so I don’t care what their courts think about me. I think this is a bad way to write a law, because if no court that I care about is going to enforce it, I can violate it. So, it is misleading to the citizens of the EU to say that they are protected by these laws.
- apocalyptic0n3 3y ago
  Under GDPR, I believe they do (at least in EU courts). It's a law that applies to EU citizens, not just to EU jurisdictions. I do not know if that is the case with the DMA, however. (Note: not a EU citizen but have had to deal with something related in the past)
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  Wrong, he doesn't stop being a EU citizen just because he's in the US, EU law still applies.
  - yau8edq12i 3y ago
    But you don't have EU rights attached to your person as a citizen. If I go to a place and commit a crime according to the local laws, I'll be charged. Well, similarly, if I go to a place where it says I don't have a certain right, then I don't have that right when I'm in that place.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      Yes I do. It means exactly that. US persons have US rights no matter where they are. Doesn't mean local laws don't also apply. Same for EU citizens. I have 3 different citizenships, so I have 3 different sets of rights that apply simultaneously and they follow me around everywhere. Why is that so hard to understand?
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        It is hard to understand because often those laws are contradictory (the US first and second amendment rights contradict the laws of many countries). It also doesn’t make sense in relation to how courts work practically; courts enforce your rights by punishing entities that violate them. If the local court doesn’t care about your rights from your other countries, and a local entity violates them, in what sense do you practically have those rights?
        dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        Because (in this case) the EU will punish Apple in the EU for taking away your rights, even though you are not in the EU. Your rights still apply. You very much do have those rights in a practical sense.
      - yau8edq12i 3y ago
supermatt 3y ago
Did you purchase your iPhone in the EU? A product sold in the EU is subject to EU law. Other laws may also be applied depending on where it is physically, but those EU laws will always still apply. Those are the conditions under which products are allowed to be sold in the EU. If they don't want to abide by those rules, then they just need to not sell the items in the EU.
bee_rider 3y ago
The way the legal system works in the US is that anybody can sue anybody, but if your case is dumb you’ll probably get tossed out. Might be expensive, etc. If you are serious about this, you’ll need a lawyer, so you can start by finding one and asking them. My layman guess: you’ll have about as much luck an American who expects their second amendment rights to be honored worldwide.
- malermeister 3y ago
  I'm not talking about suing in a US court. I'm talking about suing in an EU court.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Apple seems to be bouncing plans off the EU to see what sticks, so maybe they’ll add some special way to prove you are an EU citizen outside the EU, or something like that.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
If you bought the phone in the EU, then yes. This is just more bullshit from Apple. They can't take your rights away just because you're not physically in the EU. If you have an EU phone, then it should work with alternate stores everywhere. You won't need to sue, Apple will reverse itself soon enough.
kyriakos 3y ago
I doubt law works that way. If you visit a country where smoking weed is illegal you still get arrested even if its legal in your country.

I'm an EU citizen living in the US. I'm pretty sure this is a violation of my rights. Do I have standing to sue?

lobsterthief 3y ago

No, because the EU has no jurisdiction in the US.

malermeister 3y ago
The EU has jurisdiction over EU citizens.
- yau8edq12i 3y ago
  ... No. It has jurisdiction in the EU. Just like Americans cannot come here and exercise random rights that the US legislator decided to grant that the EU hasn't. Try to carry a gun in public in Germany and see how that works out for you, for example.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    They do have jurisdiction in the EU, like you say. Apple exists in the EU. In the case of GDPR compliance it is trickier because you can easily end up doing business with entities that will never be in the EU, so while the EU might think their laws apply worldwide, the extent to which you “have” EU rights as an EU citizen in any enforceable way is questionable. Apple wants to do business in the EU, so the EU can write whatever laws they want, including laws that govern Apple’s worldwide behavior.
    - yau8edq12i 3y ago
      Article 3(2) is crystal clear. The GDPR applies to activities who target subjects in the union, or controllers and processors established in the union. Apple has an establishment in the EU specifically so that, when it processes the data of subjects outside the EU, it's a different legal entity not established in the EU who is acting. This includes EU citizens who are not in the EU right now. I know it's a long document, but if you have any doubts, read this: https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guidelines/guidelines-32018-territorial-scope-gdpr-article-3-version_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guid... I cannot possibly summarize dozens of pages of regulation in an HN comment, so it'll be beneficial for everyone if we all start with the same knowledge.
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Examples 9 and 14 seem pretty odd, the US and the Turkish company don’t have any presence in the EU. They can break the laws of the EU in the sense that I can break the laws of China or Saudi Arabia; I’m not going there so I don’t care what their courts think about me. I think this is a bad way to write a law, because if no court that I care about is going to enforce it, I can violate it. So, it is misleading to the citizens of the EU to say that they are protected by these laws.
apocalyptic0n3 3y ago
Under GDPR, I believe they do (at least in EU courts). It's a law that applies to EU citizens, not just to EU jurisdictions. I do not know if that is the case with the DMA, however. (Note: not a EU citizen but have had to deal with something related in the past)
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Wrong, he doesn't stop being a EU citizen just because he's in the US, EU law still applies.
- yau8edq12i 3y ago
  But you don't have EU rights attached to your person as a citizen. If I go to a place and commit a crime according to the local laws, I'll be charged. Well, similarly, if I go to a place where it says I don't have a certain right, then I don't have that right when I'm in that place.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    Yes I do. It means exactly that. US persons have US rights no matter where they are. Doesn't mean local laws don't also apply. Same for EU citizens. I have 3 different citizenships, so I have 3 different sets of rights that apply simultaneously and they follow me around everywhere. Why is that so hard to understand?
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      It is hard to understand because often those laws are contradictory (the US first and second amendment rights contradict the laws of many countries). It also doesn’t make sense in relation to how courts work practically; courts enforce your rights by punishing entities that violate them. If the local court doesn’t care about your rights from your other countries, and a local entity violates them, in what sense do you practically have those rights?
      - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        Because (in this case) the EU will punish Apple in the EU for taking away your rights, even though you are not in the EU. Your rights still apply. You very much do have those rights in a practical sense.
    - yau8edq12i 3y ago

supermatt 3y ago

Did you purchase your iPhone in the EU? A product sold in the EU is subject to EU law. Other laws may also be applied depending on where it is physically, but those EU laws will always still apply. Those are the conditions under which products are allowed to be sold in the EU. If they don't want to abide by those rules, then they just need to not sell the items in the EU.

bee_rider 3y ago

The way the legal system works in the US is that anybody can sue anybody, but if your case is dumb you’ll probably get tossed out. Might be expensive, etc. If you are serious about this, you’ll need a lawyer, so you can start by finding one and asking them. My layman guess: you’ll have about as much luck an American who expects their second amendment rights to be honored worldwide.

malermeister 3y ago
I'm not talking about suing in a US court. I'm talking about suing in an EU court.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Apple seems to be bouncing plans off the EU to see what sticks, so maybe they’ll add some special way to prove you are an EU citizen outside the EU, or something like that.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

If you bought the phone in the EU, then yes. This is just more bullshit from Apple. They can't take your rights away just because you're not physically in the EU. If you have an EU phone, then it should work with alternate stores everywhere. You won't need to sue, Apple will reverse itself soon enough.

kyriakos 3y ago

I doubt law works that way. If you visit a country where smoking weed is illegal you still get arrested even if its legal in your country.