5 ms·

Changing a quote to change "his" to "theirs" seem like a very Rust community thing to do. > Updated to use modern pronouns. https://dada-lang.org/docs/about/

Changing a quote to change "his" to "theirs" seem like a very Rust community thing to do. > Updated to use modern pronouns. https://dada-lang.org/docs/about/ https://dada-lang.org/docs/about/

everybodyknows 3y ago
On iPad, I see a back-link from the footnote, but no forward link to it from the corrupted quotation.
alphazard 3y ago
I also noticed this, along with the warnings that Dada doesn't really exist yet (which is fine, thanks for the heads up). I predict this project will have its priorities backwards. There's a group of people who want to govern a programming language project, and inject their ideology into that structure, and maybe there's another group of avid language designers in there too. I think there are more of the first.
- herval 3y ago
  How do you “inject ideology” in a programming language? Compiler error if the variable name is sexist?
  - alphazard 3y ago
    > How do you “inject ideology” in a programming language? I was just talking about the project community and governance. It would be hard to imagine injecting ideology into the language itself. Oh wait, nevermind... https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/nightly-rustc/tidy/style/constant.PROBLEMATIC_CONSTS.html# https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/nightly-rustc/tidy/style/cons...
    - steveklabnik 3y ago
      This is part of rustc’s test suite. It affects nobody but rustc.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- travisgriggs 3y ago
  Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy
umvi 3y ago
Is it still a quote in that case?
- Hamuko 3y ago
  I've understood that you can modify quotes but you have to indicate the bits that you've modified. So "It enforces memory safety" becomes "[Rust] enforces memory safety" if you want to modify a quote to make more sense out of context.
- tirpen 3y ago
  Yes, it's just a different translation of the original French quote.
ursuscamp 3y ago
As an avid fan of Rust, the Rust community is incredibly cringe about this topic.
- myko 3y ago
  Seems more cringe to complain about pronouns
  - zarathustreal 3y ago
    I think we’re all saying the same things here. No one wants to hear complaints about pronouns
    - rob74 3y ago
      Actually, what I don't want is a discussion about pronouns being at the top of the comments. Aren't there more interesting topics to discuss about this project?!
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        Indeed, far more annoying is that someone grousing about the TFA update about pronouns "seems like a very [subsection of] HN community thing to do." And yet here I am, N levels down in this thread, griping about it. Oops.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
javier_cardona 3y ago
Just for context, the quoted manifesto was originally written in French (https://monoskop.org/images/3/3b/Dada_3_Dec_1918.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/3/3b/Dada_3_Dec_1918.pdf). In that version, that particular sentence is gender neutral: "tout le monde fait son art a sa façon". I would say that that their updated quote is a more accurate translation of the original than the English translation they initially used.
- sorenjan 3y ago
  That does make it a lot better, but at the same time makes the footnote even more of a deliberate statement that could have been left out.
  - gr4vityWall 3y ago
    > That does make it a lot better Why?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
OtomotO 3y ago
Non-native-speaker take: I don't care, it just reads a bit "weird" as I learned English before and "theirs" was plural... but I am adaptable. As long as the meaning of the quote isn't changed I couldn't care less and it seems very important to some people. What I personally dislike though is the whole "Ask me my pronouns" thing... like "No, I don't care about your gender or sex, as long as I am not interested in a romantic relationship with you - just tell me how to call you and I'll do it, but more effort? No!" To elaborate a bit more: I find the topic exhausting not because I hate freedom of choosing your own gender or anything like that, but because I personally do not care about your gender at all. I don't care about your religion, your skin color, your culture, your sex, your gender... I care about individual people but I don't reduce them to a certain aspect of their existence. Now I find the whole "Ask me my pronouns" exhausting and also rude because it puts pressure on me to ask you about a topic I am not interested in. Like: I get it, there is social pressure, I understand that you're not happy with certain social "norms" and developments. I totally get that and I guess we are on the same side for many of them, but I still do not care about your gender until I care about your gender. (And also, I don't live in your country probably, so your local politics may be of interest, but I still don't like being forced to talk about them before I can ask a genuine question on e.g. a technology topic ;)) Just write his/her/theirs... and I will respect your choice. I will not think less of you, nor will I put you on a pedestal for something I do not care about.
- rob74 3y ago
  The "singular they" has been a thing in English for a long time (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they). I'm a non-native speaker as well, and wasn't taught about it in school either (maybe that has changed in the meantime?). The first time I consciously noticed it is probably in the Sting song If You Love Somebody Set Them Free (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You_Love_Somebody_Set_Them_Free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You_Love_Somebody_Set_Them_...), which was his debut solo single, so is already quite old itself (1985, although I probably heard it later).
  - moomin 3y ago
tialaramex 3y ago
I mean, Tristan Tzara is Romanian and so it seems likely that this thought isn't originally English anyway, so it's reasonable for a modern writer to choose to translate it in a more inclusive way. I expect that an early English Bible and a modern one likewise make different choices about whether a text that's clearly about people generally and isn't concerned with sex or gender - should say "He" or "They" / "His" or "Their" and so on.
twic 3y ago
Changing it is perfectly reasonable, but specifically advertising that you've done it in a footnote is extremely Rust community.
winwhiz 3y ago
It is also a very Dadaism thing to do. Da!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mplanchard 3y ago
The policing of what other people should or shouldn't care about or advertise they care about is very boorish to me, but of course here I am doing the same thing.
timeon 3y ago
> modern pronouns. In my native language it is quite old-school. Really polite form.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
Singular they and their is six centuries old in English.

Changing a quote to change "his" to "theirs" seem like a very Rust community thing to do. > Updated to use modern pronouns. https://dada-lang.org/docs/about/ https://dada-lang.org/docs/about/

everybodyknows 3y ago

On iPad, I see a back-link from the footnote, but no forward link to it from the corrupted quotation.

alphazard 3y ago

I also noticed this, along with the warnings that Dada doesn't really exist yet (which is fine, thanks for the heads up). I predict this project will have its priorities backwards. There's a group of people who want to govern a programming language project, and inject their ideology into that structure, and maybe there's another group of avid language designers in there too. I think there are more of the first.

herval 3y ago
How do you “inject ideology” in a programming language? Compiler error if the variable name is sexist?
- alphazard 3y ago
  > How do you “inject ideology” in a programming language? I was just talking about the project community and governance. It would be hard to imagine injecting ideology into the language itself. Oh wait, nevermind... https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/nightly-rustc/tidy/style/constant.PROBLEMATIC_CONSTS.html# https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/nightly-rustc/tidy/style/cons...
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    This is part of rustc’s test suite. It affects nobody but rustc.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
travisgriggs 3y ago
Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy

umvi 3y ago

Is it still a quote in that case?

Hamuko 3y ago
I've understood that you can modify quotes but you have to indicate the bits that you've modified. So "It enforces memory safety" becomes "[Rust] enforces memory safety" if you want to modify a quote to make more sense out of context.
tirpen 3y ago
Yes, it's just a different translation of the original French quote.

ursuscamp 3y ago

As an avid fan of Rust, the Rust community is incredibly cringe about this topic.

myko 3y ago
Seems more cringe to complain about pronouns
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  I think we’re all saying the same things here. No one wants to hear complaints about pronouns
  - rob74 3y ago
    Actually, what I don't want is a discussion about pronouns being at the top of the comments. Aren't there more interesting topics to discuss about this project?!
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Indeed, far more annoying is that someone grousing about the TFA update about pronouns "seems like a very [subsection of] HN community thing to do." And yet here I am, N levels down in this thread, griping about it. Oops.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

javier_cardona 3y ago

Just for context, the quoted manifesto was originally written in French (https://monoskop.org/images/3/3b/Dada_3_Dec_1918.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/3/3b/Dada_3_Dec_1918.pdf). In that version, that particular sentence is gender neutral: "tout le monde fait son art a sa façon". I would say that that their updated quote is a more accurate translation of the original than the English translation they initially used.

sorenjan 3y ago
That does make it a lot better, but at the same time makes the footnote even more of a deliberate statement that could have been left out.
- gr4vityWall 3y ago
  > That does make it a lot better Why?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

OtomotO 3y ago

Non-native-speaker take: I don't care, it just reads a bit "weird" as I learned English before and "theirs" was plural... but I am adaptable. As long as the meaning of the quote isn't changed I couldn't care less and it seems very important to some people. What I personally dislike though is the whole "Ask me my pronouns" thing... like "No, I don't care about your gender or sex, as long as I am not interested in a romantic relationship with you - just tell me how to call you and I'll do it, but more effort? No!" To elaborate a bit more: I find the topic exhausting not because I hate freedom of choosing your own gender or anything like that, but because I personally do not care about your gender at all. I don't care about your religion, your skin color, your culture, your sex, your gender... I care about individual people but I don't reduce them to a certain aspect of their existence. Now I find the whole "Ask me my pronouns" exhausting and also rude because it puts pressure on me to ask you about a topic I am not interested in. Like: I get it, there is social pressure, I understand that you're not happy with certain social "norms" and developments. I totally get that and I guess we are on the same side for many of them, but I still do not care about your gender until I care about your gender. (And also, I don't live in your country probably, so your local politics may be of interest, but I still don't like being forced to talk about them before I can ask a genuine question on e.g. a technology topic ;)) Just write his/her/theirs... and I will respect your choice. I will not think less of you, nor will I put you on a pedestal for something I do not care about.

rob74 3y ago
The "singular they" has been a thing in English for a long time (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they). I'm a non-native speaker as well, and wasn't taught about it in school either (maybe that has changed in the meantime?). The first time I consciously noticed it is probably in the Sting song If You Love Somebody Set Them Free (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You_Love_Somebody_Set_Them_Free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_You_Love_Somebody_Set_Them_...), which was his debut solo single, so is already quite old itself (1985, although I probably heard it later).
- moomin 3y ago

tialaramex 3y ago

I mean, Tristan Tzara is Romanian and so it seems likely that this thought isn't originally English anyway, so it's reasonable for a modern writer to choose to translate it in a more inclusive way. I expect that an early English Bible and a modern one likewise make different choices about whether a text that's clearly about people generally and isn't concerned with sex or gender - should say "He" or "They" / "His" or "Their" and so on.

twic 3y ago

Changing it is perfectly reasonable, but specifically advertising that you've done it in a footnote is extremely Rust community.

winwhiz 3y ago

It is also a very Dadaism thing to do. Da!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mplanchard 3y ago

The policing of what other people should or shouldn't care about or advertise they care about is very boorish to me, but of course here I am doing the same thing.

timeon 3y ago

> modern pronouns. In my native language it is quite old-school. Really polite form.

kwhitefoot 3y ago

Singular they and their is six centuries old in English.