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Alternative iOS App Stores Only Work for 'Grace Period' When Outside of EU
- catlikesshrimp 3y agoI would suggest with candor using a vpn (kill switch) but that is probably covered (by apple) Next comes vpn through a router Next comes turning off the radios (airplane mode) but I forgot radios don't completely turn off in iphones (feature) Next would come the tinfoil hat (faraday cage) stage /s
- extraduder_ire 3y agoAirplane mode doesn't disable receiving radios, like GNSS chips. I have to assume that's why they mentioned that they wouldn't "collect" your location data, but the phone likely will.
- patapong 3y agoRestricting updates of apps after the grace period seems risky from a security perspective... It could leave apps with critical vulnerabilities in circulation for too long.
- Workaccount2 3y agoRight, so in order to avoid this security risk it is imperative you only use the Apple app store. What is the name for this behavior? A protection racket?
- frameset 3y agoTim Cook chomping on a cigar: "It'd be a shame if something unfortunate was to happen to those nice apps of yours..."
- ImHereToVote 3y ago"Nice device you gotz there. Wud be a real shame if some sort of malicious-like character wud getz his hands on it. Capeesh?"
- bee_rider 3y agoJust disable the apps, then the vulnerabilities don’t matter.
- blackbear_ 3y agoEh? That can't be right! I thought Apple cared about their customers? /S
- thefz 3y agoRemember that this is an artificial limitation imposed by Apple, not by the EU.
- madeofpalk 3y agoFor whatever it's worth, I would expect any security vulnerability in an iOS app to be a vulnerability of iOS itself, and not the app.
- kjreact 3y agoBy your logic Unix is insecure just because an admin is allowed to install a trojan? The OS itself cannot stop the user from installing malicious software.
- catlikesshrimp 3y agoYou are not an admin of the iphone unless you jailbreak it
- kjreact 3y agoYou have enough “admin” access to install a trojan.
- madeofpalk 3y agoWhat iOS trojan are you referring to that is not a vulnerability of iOS itself?
- kjreact 3y agoPhishing apps posing as trusted sources (ie a fake banking app), a key logging browser, anything pertaining to trust. None of these are vulnerabilities to the OS itself.
- catlikesshrimp 3y agoAll sms, phone calls and websites can be used to scam people. On iOS, "users" are not "admins"
- madeofpalk 3y agoiOS has a significantly different security model than 'Unix'. iOS apps being significantly more sandboxed and restricted, technically, prevents many things an 'admin' could otherwise do.
- extraduder_ire 3y agoOn a somewhat related note, I love the pizazz the European Commission is demonstrating on their DMA website. ( https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/index_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/index_en ) There's a ticking countdown labelled "Compliance time!", currently at 01DAYS 08HOURS 21MINUTES 21SECONDS as of writing, with the 7 March 2024 at 22:59 deadline below.
- baggy_trough 3y agoLuv that time to become "compliant".
- input_sh 3y agoDMA became a regulation in Nov 2022, they had like 18 months. Like with GDPR, everyone waited until the last second.
- bhaney 3y agoI vaguely (and very possibly incorrectly) remember something about the GDPR still applying to EU citizens who are traveling outside of the EU. Does the same kind of thing not apply to these new digital marketplace laws?
- ktosobcy 3y agoAFAIR gdpr is not based on location but on citizenship so even if you are outside of the EU they should not be able to process your data (thus quite a lot of places improved either the process or blocked EU users).. App store should be the same, especially considering that you configure location in your iPhone profile so that should be relevant here..
- malermeister 3y agoI'm an EU citizen living in the US. I'm pretty sure this is a violation of my rights. Do I have standing to sue?
- lobsterthief 3y agoNo, because the EU has no jurisdiction in the US.
- malermeister 3y agoThe EU has jurisdiction over EU citizens.
- yau8edq12i 3y ago... No. It has jurisdiction in the EU. Just like Americans cannot come here and exercise random rights that the US legislator decided to grant that the EU hasn't. Try to carry a gun in public in Germany and see how that works out for you, for example.
- bee_rider 3y agoThey do have jurisdiction in the EU, like you say. Apple exists in the EU. In the case of GDPR compliance it is trickier because you can easily end up doing business with entities that will never be in the EU, so while the EU might think their laws apply worldwide, the extent to which you “have” EU rights as an EU citizen in any enforceable way is questionable. Apple wants to do business in the EU, so the EU can write whatever laws they want, including laws that govern Apple’s worldwide behavior.
- yau8edq12i 3y agoArticle 3(2) is crystal clear. The GDPR applies to activities who target subjects in the union, or controllers and processors established in the union. Apple has an establishment in the EU specifically so that, when it processes the data of subjects outside the EU, it's a different legal entity not established in the EU who is acting. This includes EU citizens who are not in the EU right now. I know it's a long document, but if you have any doubts, read this: https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guidelines/guidelines-32018-territorial-scope-gdpr-article-3-version_en https://www.edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/guid... I cannot possibly summarize dozens of pages of regulation in an HN comment, so it'll be beneficial for everyone if we all start with the same knowledge.
- badgersnake 3y agoAre there even any alternative App Stores?
- graftak 3y agoDid you read the article at all? At least 3 are planned, one of which by Epic who have been pushing for alternative app stores for years.
- badgersnake 3y agoYeah I read it. As you say, the ones they mention are planned. So not available. If there are none, this seems pretty moot right now. Things may change should people actually start using them in large numbers.
- graftak 3y agoMovivention, one of those 3, is scheduled to launch March 7th, two days after the release of iOS 17.4. https://mobivention.com/presse-en-2/mobivention-revolutionises-the-distribution-of-ios-apps-in-the-eu-with-an-authorised-alternative-app-marketplace/?lang=en https://mobivention.com/presse-en-2/mobivention-revolutionis...
- graftak 3y agoUnless the grace period is a year or more this is just another finger to apples customers and European legislation (which will likely receive a patch if Apple are too skimpy with the grace period duration).
- testfrequency 3y agoI suppose all future lawsuits with Apple need to be hyper hyper detailed in order to prevent Apple from making these half-ass “good faith” attempts at doing the bare minimum, definitely not in good spirit of the law at all. I’m honestly a bit taken back by how hostile they are acting. Apple genuinely seems to be in their Microsoft era now and it’s not looking good for them. They should be ashamed of themselves. This is going to be a security and compliance issue when EU citizens are traveling for work for extended periods, and now they can’t patch apps. Was this Apple’s goal all along, to force people into using their official App Store? Why do they not put these rules on their own App Store?
- supermatt 3y agoNot really. In the EU, the emphasis lies on interpreting the spirit of the law rather than its letter - known as "teleological interpretation". It seems apples (and other big tech) lawyers constantly make this mistake :)
- prmoustache 3y agoIf only people would stop pretending that IPs have a geographical location. They don't. And never will.
- Hamuko 3y agoYour phone most definitely has a geographical location though, and also a GPS receiver.
- prmoustache 3y agoI can disable it on Android, I hope you can do it on iOS too.
- Hamuko 3y ago>The country or region of your Apple ID must be set to one of the countries or regions of the European Union, and you must physically be located in the European Union. >Your device eligibility for alternative app marketplaces is determined using on-device processing with only an indicator of eligibility sent to Apple. To preserve your privacy, Apple does not collect your device's location. https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110 https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110 >Based on our findings, the new system internally called “countryd” was silently added with iOS 16.2, but is not being actively used for anything so far. It combines multiple data such as current GPS location, country code from the Wi-Fi router, and information obtained from the SIM card to determine the country the user is in. https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-based-on-location/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-base...
- supermatt 3y agoSo now apple think that my rights as a consumer for products I purchased in the EU don't apply when i am away from the EU? How much longer will the EU tolerate this behaviour before we start seeing fines in the billions.
- malermeister 3y agoThe DMA allows for fines of up to 10% of total worldwide turnover. I'm not sure this is a fight Apple should be picking.
- bee_rider 3y agoApple seems to be bouncing ideas off the EU with respect to compliance here. Realistically I guess they have one “grace period,” however long that is, before they start violating anybody’s rights. So, they could take that time to negotiate with the EU and come up with a way to prove your EU citizenship outside the EU. I don’t think the EU cares to protect us Americans just because we imported a phone from the EU. So, I bet it’ll be citizenship based somehow.
- kyriakos 3y agoResidency not citizenship. A country's laws apply to anyone in the country not just its citizens. Technically if you are American visiting EU the DSA consumer protection applies to you the moment you land.
- bee_rider 3y agoThe law applies to Apple’s presence in the EU. The EU could order Apple’s EU branch to allow anyone to install an App Store. In the sense that sovereign states can write their laws however they want. Looking into it, they use the phrase “end user” a lot, but don’t seem to specify resident, citizen, or anything, at least as far as I see. It is a complicated law so I probably missed it. People here seem really confident about who’s covered, but nobody is providing links, so I think everybody is just going off vibes.
- bhpm 3y agoAre the alternative app stores hosted on Apple servers? Serious question.
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- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoI hear that Apple will be disabling the USB C port and it will only work with Lightning adaptors while you're in the US.
- 6510 3y agothe dongle company ecocide
- mirzap 3y agoTim Cook must leave before he destroys Apple. They are indeed modern-day Microsoft. Apple needs its Satya Nadella before it's too late. I really hope Europe slaps them a 20b fine for this mockery. This is obviously illegal. Europe doesn't care about the broders, it cares about rights it's citizens.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoI don't understand how they can think that their malicious compliance strategy will work out for them. It's a PR disaster. Who does Cook have advising him? Elon Musk?
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoThe average Apple fan hardly cares, they happily believe that a walled garden “protects” them from malware.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoAnd when malware gets occasionally through, it is because walled garden should be actually a concrete sphere buried 1km under the ground.