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I totally agree. The past few links on HN to comments by Tovald have been full of inflammatory, juvenile language. I'm sure the guy is intelligent and certainly

I totally agree. The past few links on HN to comments by Tovald have been full of inflammatory, juvenile language. I'm sure the guy is intelligent and certainly deserves a place in CS hall-of-fame, but I think the way he carries himself in these forums has tarnished his reputation.

1qaz2wsx3edc 14y ago
I feel like Tovald should watch DHH's railsconf talk on progress & the 'old' mentality. This feels alarmist, but he like any other githubber gets to choose what gets accepted or rejected.
- nupark2 14y ago
  The fact that you're setting up DHH as a foil to Linus is exactly why the old men are cranky; when it comes to technology, Linus has more qualifications in his pinky than DHH has all put together.
  - glogla 14y ago
    Then again, are we talking about technical expertise, or about Linus' inability to act like a reasonable human being?
- marcamillion 14y ago
  Funnily enough...DHH's talk is EXACTLY the first thing that came to mind when I saw Torvald's comment. Who cares if Torvalds has 'more' technical chops than DHH...DHH might be more abrasive, but it is a good abrasive. He is always pushing the community forward and encouraging Rails developers to be a little better. He is not afraid to embrace new technologies and give credit where its due. Can't tell when last I have seen these older guys do the same.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    You can't see how the head Linux kernel dev has been pushing the community foward? Okay then.
    - marcamillion 14y ago
      Heh.....you misunderstood me. I have never once bashed his contributions to the community and OSS. Just like I would never do the same for the creators of Java, C, PHP, all of which I don't use and have no interest in. But there is significant value in all of them and we are all better off for their existence. My point was, more often than not....you hear the creators of these 'foundational' contributions complaining about new things (either new approaches which were different than theirs, or they shit on new languages because those languages don't have some purist function that theirs does or doesn't achieve the same low-level execution speed that theirs does). DHH can be a dick, but I have never seen him shit on someone for trying something new (even within the Ruby & Rails core). That being said, I am not saying he doesn't disagree with the approach that people take....but there is a difference between shitting on someone/something and disagreeing with it. What Linus did here was shit all over Github's implementation of the pull request - because it is different than his implementation would have been.
      - dasil003 14y ago
        Why do you conclude that Linus is shitting over Github's pull requests simply because they are different from what he would have done? What possible reason do you have for jumping to such a superficial conclusion? I'm not going to speculate, but it's clear you are talking out your ass. Linus has spend the last 20+ years building one of the most important pieces of software in existence. Not only that, but he created git, without which the Github guys, DHH, and everyone else would be using fucking Subversion. The process that he follows for kernel development does not exist out of vanity, it serves an actual proven purpose. Linus' care and attention to detail are a big part of why you can rely on the stability of Linux over time. For you to come in here spouting off some nonsense about why he does this or why he does that without clue #1 as to the real reasons, and then to pay homage to the guys who are "trying something new" all the time standing on the shoulders of said giants, well, it's a slap in the face. Respect is due my friend.
- ionforce 14y ago
  Do you have a cliff's notes version?
- glogla 14y ago
  Is there a link? I'd really grateful for that.
flomo 14y ago
Note Torvalds is incredibly polite and articulate when speaking to the public or press. However in technical fora he carries an old-school 1992 usenet-style flamethrower. Its just the way most of those old *nix guys interact.
- mst 14y ago
  Some of us who're less old interact that way too, and find it a hell of a lot more efficient than trying to be nice. The point of technical fora is to have effective, high bandwidth discussions on technical matters. If I want a hug, I can go get a real one from a real live human being - and I'll interact with them in an appropriate way for that context, too.
  - gft 14y ago
    Linus may be an ass at times but he has earned that right, and is one of the few people from whom an abrasive attitude is tolerated. I would strongly caution you that most people do not find that sort of attitude acceptable. And yes, this is a throwaway account. It might be worth considering why I created it to respond to you, just based on your post above.
    - flomo 14y ago
      chicken/egg: One of the reason Torvolds is so respected as a leader is because he knows how to win a technical argument.
    - mst 14y ago
      Wheras mine isn't a throwaway and I never use them, for reasons I shall endeavour to make clear. My opinion is my opinion, and you're welcome to hold a different one, but I'll damn well stand behind holding mine and explain the reasons why I do as myself, with my reputation and my ability and everything I've ever said attached to it, including the stupid, horrible mistakes (of which this post may later seem to me to be one :). Because the fact that I do my best to make less such mistakes every year speaks for me as well. You are absolutely right that it is worth considering why you created an anonymous coward account, as slashdot calls them, rather than speaking your opinions as yourself - no matter how strongly you disagree with me I respect your right to do so even if I have no respect at all for your arguments or position. But now I have no way to know you, and no way to respond to a human being rather than a (to me) meaningless transient front so I don't really feel like I can draw any useful conclusions from such consideration. I don't know why you'd want that. If you want to disagree with me, disagree with me as -you-, so I know who I'm debating with and can frame a constructive reply. Perhaps the fact that I would rather disagree honestly with another human being, and that you would ... I don't know what you'd rather ... is the point. Perhaps it isn't. But now I can't know. Arguing for "most people" holds no weight with me when I'm unable to even confirm that you're a person. Maybe I'm too web 1.0 or something. If so, sorry. Please do, however, consider responding to me authentically; I'm always willing to debate whether I'm right or not, but I've always been rather fonder of debating people than will-o-the-wisps. Maybe that's just me. Deciding that is left as an exercise to the reader :)
scythe 14y ago
Selection bias!

1qaz2wsx3edc 14y ago

I feel like Tovald should watch DHH's railsconf talk on progress & the 'old' mentality. This feels alarmist, but he like any other githubber gets to choose what gets accepted or rejected.

nupark2 14y ago
The fact that you're setting up DHH as a foil to Linus is exactly why the old men are cranky; when it comes to technology, Linus has more qualifications in his pinky than DHH has all put together.
- glogla 14y ago
  Then again, are we talking about technical expertise, or about Linus' inability to act like a reasonable human being?
marcamillion 14y ago
Funnily enough...DHH's talk is EXACTLY the first thing that came to mind when I saw Torvald's comment. Who cares if Torvalds has 'more' technical chops than DHH...DHH might be more abrasive, but it is a good abrasive. He is always pushing the community forward and encouraging Rails developers to be a little better. He is not afraid to embrace new technologies and give credit where its due. Can't tell when last I have seen these older guys do the same.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  You can't see how the head Linux kernel dev has been pushing the community foward? Okay then.
  - marcamillion 14y ago
    Heh.....you misunderstood me. I have never once bashed his contributions to the community and OSS. Just like I would never do the same for the creators of Java, C, PHP, all of which I don't use and have no interest in. But there is significant value in all of them and we are all better off for their existence. My point was, more often than not....you hear the creators of these 'foundational' contributions complaining about new things (either new approaches which were different than theirs, or they shit on new languages because those languages don't have some purist function that theirs does or doesn't achieve the same low-level execution speed that theirs does). DHH can be a dick, but I have never seen him shit on someone for trying something new (even within the Ruby & Rails core). That being said, I am not saying he doesn't disagree with the approach that people take....but there is a difference between shitting on someone/something and disagreeing with it. What Linus did here was shit all over Github's implementation of the pull request - because it is different than his implementation would have been.
    - dasil003 14y ago
      Why do you conclude that Linus is shitting over Github's pull requests simply because they are different from what he would have done? What possible reason do you have for jumping to such a superficial conclusion? I'm not going to speculate, but it's clear you are talking out your ass. Linus has spend the last 20+ years building one of the most important pieces of software in existence. Not only that, but he created git, without which the Github guys, DHH, and everyone else would be using fucking Subversion. The process that he follows for kernel development does not exist out of vanity, it serves an actual proven purpose. Linus' care and attention to detail are a big part of why you can rely on the stability of Linux over time. For you to come in here spouting off some nonsense about why he does this or why he does that without clue #1 as to the real reasons, and then to pay homage to the guys who are "trying something new" all the time standing on the shoulders of said giants, well, it's a slap in the face. Respect is due my friend.
ionforce 14y ago
Do you have a cliff's notes version?
glogla 14y ago
Is there a link? I'd really grateful for that.

flomo 14y ago

Note Torvalds is incredibly polite and articulate when speaking to the public or press. However in technical fora he carries an old-school 1992 usenet-style flamethrower. Its just the way most of those old *nix guys interact.

mst 14y ago
Some of us who're less old interact that way too, and find it a hell of a lot more efficient than trying to be nice. The point of technical fora is to have effective, high bandwidth discussions on technical matters. If I want a hug, I can go get a real one from a real live human being - and I'll interact with them in an appropriate way for that context, too.
- gft 14y ago
  Linus may be an ass at times but he has earned that right, and is one of the few people from whom an abrasive attitude is tolerated. I would strongly caution you that most people do not find that sort of attitude acceptable. And yes, this is a throwaway account. It might be worth considering why I created it to respond to you, just based on your post above.
  - flomo 14y ago
    chicken/egg: One of the reason Torvolds is so respected as a leader is because he knows how to win a technical argument.
  - mst 14y ago
    Wheras mine isn't a throwaway and I never use them, for reasons I shall endeavour to make clear. My opinion is my opinion, and you're welcome to hold a different one, but I'll damn well stand behind holding mine and explain the reasons why I do as myself, with my reputation and my ability and everything I've ever said attached to it, including the stupid, horrible mistakes (of which this post may later seem to me to be one :). Because the fact that I do my best to make less such mistakes every year speaks for me as well. You are absolutely right that it is worth considering why you created an anonymous coward account, as slashdot calls them, rather than speaking your opinions as yourself - no matter how strongly you disagree with me I respect your right to do so even if I have no respect at all for your arguments or position. But now I have no way to know you, and no way to respond to a human being rather than a (to me) meaningless transient front so I don't really feel like I can draw any useful conclusions from such consideration. I don't know why you'd want that. If you want to disagree with me, disagree with me as -you-, so I know who I'm debating with and can frame a constructive reply. Perhaps the fact that I would rather disagree honestly with another human being, and that you would ... I don't know what you'd rather ... is the point. Perhaps it isn't. But now I can't know. Arguing for "most people" holds no weight with me when I'm unable to even confirm that you're a person. Maybe I'm too web 1.0 or something. If so, sorry. Please do, however, consider responding to me authentically; I'm always willing to debate whether I'm right or not, but I've always been rather fonder of debating people than will-o-the-wisps. Maybe that's just me. Deciding that is left as an exercise to the reader :)

scythe 14y ago

Selection bias!