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Yes. And that's why it's truly „far“ left. Stuff like this is what gets one labeled „far“. Same for the opposite end of the horse shoe.

by mantas 3y ago

hnbad 3y ago
I didn't say the RAF weren't "far left". The exact ideology of the Bader-Meinhof group is not easy to pinpoint exactly, especially if you account for its evolution over time, but I think it's somewhat safe to say they broadly aligned with Maoism. They were at some point politically aligned with the East German government but that was clearly more for pragmatic reasons than deeply held convictions. I'm merely saying that we whitewash a lot of that part of German history exactly because the RAF stood in opposition to it and if we all agree that the RAF were bad because they were terrorists then their victims must have been "good" and that is arguably closer to the opposite of the truth. "1960s Germany was full of NSDAP members in leadership positions and used excessive police violence to suppress civil unrest" is not a far left take, it's historical consensus. The problem with the horse shoe and why although law enforcement likes it political scientists generally ridicule it is that politics are not one-dimensional and more often than not there actually isn't a middle ground. This actually has led to real world problems in Germany because just like how the East German government's ideological convictions made it incapable of acknowledging the existence of neo-nazis in East Germany because they saw fascism as an evolution of capitalism, German law enforcement can't adequately comprehend the German sovcit "Reichsbürger" movement because while being clearly far right it's actually in large parts a monarchist movement not a nazi one (although there are of course overlaps for pragmatic reasons).
- mantas 3y ago
  I guess we're far off-topic, but anyway... As an outsider, I find that part of German history fascinating. It's a miracle that Germany was neutered relatively peacefully and it took just a generation or two. Especially when you compare it to post-war Japan (which was a success, but different, maybe better in the long run?) and post-cold-war Russia (which was a failure as we see nowadays). Regarding horse shoe, I can share my personal anecdote. I'm born USSR & raised ex-USSR. Here far right was (and still is to a big extent) built on top of anti-soviet dissent. Pro-free-market, pro-nation-states, free speech and so on, basically reverse of whatever the soviet regime was. Even soviet punks and hippies were quite (far-)right especially compared to their west counterparts at the time :) I spent some time on UK university campus a good decade ago. It was very interesting how (far-)left at the time was quite similar to far-right back home. The goals were different, but the people, vector and modus operandi were very very similar. Punk kids, often from good stable background, were trying to find a way to solve eye sores of the society. While UK right-wing was completely different world to me with old-money and all that jazz. Which was very similar to our ex-USSR-establishment circles.

Yes. And that's why it's truly „far“ left. Stuff like this is what gets one labeled „far“. Same for the opposite end of the horse shoe.

by mantas 3y ago

Yes. And that's why it's truly „far“ left. Stuff like this is what gets one labeled „far“. Same for the opposite end of the horse shoe.

hnbad 3y ago

I didn't say the RAF weren't "far left". The exact ideology of the Bader-Meinhof group is not easy to pinpoint exactly, especially if you account for its evolution over time, but I think it's somewhat safe to say they broadly aligned with Maoism. They were at some point politically aligned with the East German government but that was clearly more for pragmatic reasons than deeply held convictions. I'm merely saying that we whitewash a lot of that part of German history exactly because the RAF stood in opposition to it and if we all agree that the RAF were bad because they were terrorists then their victims must have been "good" and that is arguably closer to the opposite of the truth. "1960s Germany was full of NSDAP members in leadership positions and used excessive police violence to suppress civil unrest" is not a far left take, it's historical consensus. The problem with the horse shoe and why although law enforcement likes it political scientists generally ridicule it is that politics are not one-dimensional and more often than not there actually isn't a middle ground. This actually has led to real world problems in Germany because just like how the East German government's ideological convictions made it incapable of acknowledging the existence of neo-nazis in East Germany because they saw fascism as an evolution of capitalism, German law enforcement can't adequately comprehend the German sovcit "Reichsbürger" movement because while being clearly far right it's actually in large parts a monarchist movement not a nazi one (although there are of course overlaps for pragmatic reasons).

mantas 3y ago
I guess we're far off-topic, but anyway... As an outsider, I find that part of German history fascinating. It's a miracle that Germany was neutered relatively peacefully and it took just a generation or two. Especially when you compare it to post-war Japan (which was a success, but different, maybe better in the long run?) and post-cold-war Russia (which was a failure as we see nowadays). Regarding horse shoe, I can share my personal anecdote. I'm born USSR & raised ex-USSR. Here far right was (and still is to a big extent) built on top of anti-soviet dissent. Pro-free-market, pro-nation-states, free speech and so on, basically reverse of whatever the soviet regime was. Even soviet punks and hippies were quite (far-)right especially compared to their west counterparts at the time :) I spent some time on UK university campus a good decade ago. It was very interesting how (far-)left at the time was quite similar to far-right back home. The goals were different, but the people, vector and modus operandi were very very similar. Punk kids, often from good stable background, were trying to find a way to solve eye sores of the society. While UK right-wing was completely different world to me with old-money and all that jazz. Which was very similar to our ex-USSR-establishment circles.