4 ms·

I don't see the difference between this and playing the slots in Vegas. In both cases the house has the advantage; in both cases more is paid for the final priz

by sgman 18y ago

I don't see the difference between this and playing the slots in Vegas. In both cases the house has the advantage; in both cases more is paid for the final prize than what it's worth; in both cases the winner likely gets a good deal on the prize and the losers lose their investment.

mattmaroon 18y ago
There's nothing random involved in this, whereas there is with slot machines. Legally that makes a world of difference.
- asdflkj 18y ago
  Someone who can see the slot machine's internals and understands how it works will be able to predict the outcome, so in that sense it's not "truly" random. The reason it's still legally random is that it's as good as random from the point of view of the player. Same applies here. No?
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    No. This auction system is no more random than chess. In chess, your opponent can just blunder and give you a win. Bobby Fisher once lost to a newspaper reporter. But just as in chess, this auction system determines a result based solely on the actions of the participant. There is no roll of a die, turn of a card, or reading of a number from an RNG. Legally you need something like that to be considered gambling. You're right of course that slot machines aren't truly random in the sense that they use a pseudo random number generator. I don't think they have any hardware in them that reads thermal noise or anything like that. But that's sufficiently close to the roll of a die to qualify. Philosophically I tend to agree with you since I believe the universe is deterministic, and nothing is truly random. But I'm pretty sure that legally this would not be gambling or sweepstakes in at least most states.
    - asdflkj 18y ago
      So if the outcome of the slot machine is determined by the outcomes of other slot machines in the casino, then the slot machine ceases to be a game of chance? It seems to me that if you define randomness in any way besides "involves no skill, or almost no skill", but instead by explicitly describing the mechanism of "randomness", then all sorts of loopholes open up. In any case, big kudos to these guys for coming up with it. My day was completely ruined by envy.
      - mattmaroon 18y ago
        Each slot machine has its own independent RNG. Even if they shared one, it's still an RNG. Many forms of gambling involve skill. For instance, I can achieve a higher return (though still negative) at a craps table than your average Vegas gambler because I know which bets pay the best odds. That doesn't make them any less gambling. How much skill vs. chance constitutes gambling varies from state to state. But no state would define a system in which there is no random element as gambling. If the outcome is 100% the result of the actions of the "betters" it's clearly a game of skill. (If it's based on the actions of third party humans and contests, it's usually illegal, such as betting on sports or elections). Interestingly, in many states instant bingo machines are legal games of skill due to that very reason. They look and feel just like a slot machine, but the payouts are predetermined, just like a box of instant bingo cards, so there's no element of chance, even though the person playing them has no idea what the next payout will be. States have been/are closing that loophole fast.
        mattmaroon 18y ago
        On a related note, I've been interviewed a number of times about poker and am always asked whether it's a game of chance or skill. I always tell them both, which people just don't want to accept as an answer. I don't know why people think all games are one or the other. Sure, some games you can be +EV, some you can't without cheating, but that doesn't mean it's binary.

by sgman 18y ago

mattmaroon 18y ago

There's nothing random involved in this, whereas there is with slot machines. Legally that makes a world of difference.

asdflkj 18y ago
Someone who can see the slot machine's internals and understands how it works will be able to predict the outcome, so in that sense it's not "truly" random. The reason it's still legally random is that it's as good as random from the point of view of the player. Same applies here. No?
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  No. This auction system is no more random than chess. In chess, your opponent can just blunder and give you a win. Bobby Fisher once lost to a newspaper reporter. But just as in chess, this auction system determines a result based solely on the actions of the participant. There is no roll of a die, turn of a card, or reading of a number from an RNG. Legally you need something like that to be considered gambling. You're right of course that slot machines aren't truly random in the sense that they use a pseudo random number generator. I don't think they have any hardware in them that reads thermal noise or anything like that. But that's sufficiently close to the roll of a die to qualify. Philosophically I tend to agree with you since I believe the universe is deterministic, and nothing is truly random. But I'm pretty sure that legally this would not be gambling or sweepstakes in at least most states.
  - asdflkj 18y ago
    So if the outcome of the slot machine is determined by the outcomes of other slot machines in the casino, then the slot machine ceases to be a game of chance? It seems to me that if you define randomness in any way besides "involves no skill, or almost no skill", but instead by explicitly describing the mechanism of "randomness", then all sorts of loopholes open up. In any case, big kudos to these guys for coming up with it. My day was completely ruined by envy.
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      Each slot machine has its own independent RNG. Even if they shared one, it's still an RNG. Many forms of gambling involve skill. For instance, I can achieve a higher return (though still negative) at a craps table than your average Vegas gambler because I know which bets pay the best odds. That doesn't make them any less gambling. How much skill vs. chance constitutes gambling varies from state to state. But no state would define a system in which there is no random element as gambling. If the outcome is 100% the result of the actions of the "betters" it's clearly a game of skill. (If it's based on the actions of third party humans and contests, it's usually illegal, such as betting on sports or elections). Interestingly, in many states instant bingo machines are legal games of skill due to that very reason. They look and feel just like a slot machine, but the payouts are predetermined, just like a box of instant bingo cards, so there's no element of chance, even though the person playing them has no idea what the next payout will be. States have been/are closing that loophole fast.
      - mattmaroon 18y ago
        On a related note, I've been interviewed a number of times about poker and am always asked whether it's a game of chance or skill. I always tell them both, which people just don't want to accept as an answer. I don't know why people think all games are one or the other. Sure, some games you can be +EV, some you can't without cheating, but that doesn't mean it's binary.