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I remember when my family collectively came together to cook a meal when I was a child, how this deprived me of the experience of learning to bootstrap civiliza
by lovich 3y ago
I remember when my family collectively came together to cook a meal when I was a child, how this deprived me of the experience of learning to bootstrap civilization on my own.
Literally any time two people work together that’s dangerously close to collectivism as it’s not individuals working in their own. Down with the collectivists, every person should be an independent operator
- kortilla 3y agoCollectivism involves deciding for others. If it’s fully voluntary it’s individualism. Working together is not collectivism.
- bergen 3y agoSo everyone in OpenAI or google decides for themselves what they want to work on and is detached from hierarchies?
- Jensson 3y agoCollectivism says there is one collective, if you are allowed to go and found a new collective then that isn't collectivism any longer.
- sausse 3y agoWhy be obtuse? Advocacy for open-sourcing or at least opposition to the forced set of San Franciscan millennial ethics is not analogous to abolishing voluntary hierarchies.
- kortilla 3y agoYes, they can quit any day they want and that company cannot impose any restrictions on them.
- color_me_not 3y ago> Collectivism involves deciding for others. That may be true, but that's not sufficient to define collectivism. There are many other forms of societal structures where "deciding for others" exists as well. Unless you mean to lump all these together, and say that companies and tyranny for example are the same as collectivism? > If it’s fully voluntary it’s individualism. If I _voluntarily_ decide to join a "collective", am I individualist or collectivist?
- WalterBright 3y ago> If I _voluntarily_ decide to join a "collective", am I individualist or collectivist? An individualist, if you are free to leave it at any time. There's nothing wrong with forming a collective in the US, I think like 20,000 of them have been formed over the last 240 years. You don't hear about them much because they all failed. You're free to start a collective anytime in the US and try to make it work. Isn't freedom great?
- fragmede 3y agoThey haven't all failed. I hear about REI quite a lot. Rainbow Grocery is quite popular in SF. I hear good things about Organic Valley. Equal Exchange is in Massachusetts. It's popular to bank at a credit union instead of a bank. The NCBA maintains a list of several thousand collective/coop businesses. https://ncbaclusa.coop/ https://ncbaclusa.coop/
- WalterBright 3y agoI was using collective in the sense of being a commune. Sorry about not being clear.
- fragmede 3y agoCommunes haven't all failed. There are a number of them that continue to exist to this day. That the rest of us haven't been forced into living in one of them doesn't mean they don't exist. Portland has a bunch of co-living co-housing communities that are thriving.
- 20after4 3y agohttps://www.eastwind.org/ https://www.eastwind.org/ is just a few miles from me. It's quite successful, they even operate a business that grosses ~$2M/year and they provide their members with health insurance. I'm not keen on giving up my possessions to join the collective but I can think of a lot of worse ways to live. Most definitely not a failure.
- lovich 3y agoAh so my family was collectivist as I just ate what my family served. I’ll be sure to tell my mother of her evil collectivist policies for giving me a peanut butter sandwich for dinner when I was five instead of letting me self actualize and choose my own meals.
- kortilla 3y agoYou weren’t required to eat it. I’m not sure what is so difficult to grasp here.
- lovich 3y agoI was required by biology to eat and had no choice over the available food. The requirement for energy might be discountable as a fact of reality to just deal with, but my parents decided what food I got to eat. To be clear I don’t think this arrangement is a problem, and if you were describing this in academic terms I mig even agree with you and have been too harsh. Unfortunately the word “collectivism” is used as a perjorative dog whistle and so I was pointing out how common behaviors most people would think are fine or even ideal can be cast in a “collectivist” light to point out that it’s not bad. I’m assuming by the vote difference in our two comments that multiple people had the same assumption