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There is so much Kagi references on HN that I’m slowly beginning to feel sus about it. I’m not saying this is happening (I’m not saying anyone is a shill). It’

There is so much Kagi references on HN that I’m slowly beginning to feel sus about it. I’m not saying this is happening (I’m not saying anyone is a shill). It’s just making me feel a little “hmm” about it.

itsdrewmiller 3y ago
It's not just hacker news! They were up in arms about some actual analysis of search quality here: https://danluu.com/seo-spam/ https://danluu.com/seo-spam/ Another common response is >Your table is wrong. I tried these queries on Kagi and got Good results for the queries [but phrase much more strongly] I'm not sure why people feel so strongly about Kagi but, all of these kinds of responses so far have come from Kagi users. No one has gotten good results for the tire, transistor, or snow queries (note, again, that this is not a query looking for a daily forecast, as clearly implied by the "winter 2023" in the query), nor are the results for the other queries very good if you don't have an ad blocker. I suppose it's possible that the next person who tells me this actually has good results, but that seems fairly unlikely given the zero percent correctness rate so far. For example, one user claimed that the results were all good, but they pinned GitHub results and only ran the queries for which you'd get a good result on GitHub. This is actually worse than you get if you use Google or Bing and write good queries since you'll get noise in your results when GitHub is the wrong place to search. Of course you make a similar claim that Bing is amazing is you write non-naive queries, so it's curious that so many Kagi users are angrily writing me about this and no Google or Bing users. Kagi appears to have tapped into the same vein that Tesla and Apple have managed to tap into, where users become incensed that someone is criticizing something they love and then write nonsensical defenses of their favorite product, which bodes well for Kagi. I've gotten comments like this from not just one Kagi user, but many.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I'm not really a fan of this person's dismissive attitude, they're trying to avoid dealing with domain rank adjustments, understandably so the results are comparable, but the adjustments are part of the value add. The testing methodology is also odd, looking specifically for yt-dlp when asking for "download youtube video", when the web based downloaders that most of the big engines turn up on top make more sense for the average user, both due to not having to install a command line tool and due to not necessarily being on a device the tool can be installed on. I've often used the top Kagi result, and it has worked fine, yet has been labeled as scammy by the evaluator. IIRC that site also ranks high in Google's results. For adblock they expect specifically ublock origin, and consider ABP to not count despite it also being a very popular blocker. Them complaining about why it's only Kagi users reaching out to him also seems unnecessarily aggressive, eg I've found their article through you, in the context of Kagi, so if I were to comment, it'd obviously be in that context. However, how likely is this article to be brought up in the context of Bing, Google, ChatGPT or DDG, where there are many more carefully thought out and less dismissive comparisons and discussions out there?
  - itsdrewmiller 3y ago
    fwiw I agree with you that the evaluation criteria here are not ones that I particularly care about - I'm generally pretty happy with AI-first and then expanding to search engines if I can't get what I want there. My main intent was to note that Kagi users are just genuinely that enthusiastic, since GP at least lightly implied there might be some astroturfing going on.
dotnet00 3y ago
I think it's just that search engine quality comes up often, and through the recent very popular Kagi threads, a lot of HN users have ended up at least giving it a try. In a sense it's targeted advertising, since HN users are very likely to be power users who care about a paid search engine for one reason or another. But it's still organic in the sense that the articles posted are ultimately just the regular search engine discourse or otherwise not content specifically crafted for the purpose of advertisement.
iamthepieman 3y ago
Well you're right. I'm a shill for kagi. The experience has totally converted me. However, I'm not affiliated so I'm an organic shill - healthier and less toxic.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
op00to 3y ago
I feel it’s much more that people on HN are able to evaluate that Kagi is much better than Google, and really want other people to see that. Unfortunately, shitty search results are usually good enough for most people, so it’s hard to justify the switch.
tstrimple 3y ago
I'm a happy Kagi user. It's not ground breaking or anything I'd even recommend to most people. It's a slightly worse Google search, with substantially better power usability. Normal, every day searches could be done on either Google or Kagi and the Google results are slightly better especially with regard to geo based critera. I don't have to specify "Name of City" in Google nearly as often as I do in Kagi. However, when I'm trying to find some archaic technical solutions that I know is out there on the web somewhere, Google just can't really do the job any more at all. Exact search doesn't even work! Kagi's filters DO work, and the ability to black list stackoverflow scrapers cuts out a lot of the useless noise. It's at those times when Kagi earns its place.
wetpaws 3y ago
[dead]
al_borland 3y ago
I talk about it here, but I first stumbled across it on Mastodon. I think it’s more that the type of users Mastodon and HN attracts are the same type of people to pay for a search engine and be excited about a search engine. I have long hated that “free with ads” is the first and only business model anyone thinks can work on the internet, so I want to support companies that are willing to push back against that. Ads in search create a conflict of interest that I don’t like. Ads in most products create a conflict of interest I don’t like. I pay for YouTube Premium for a similar ideological reason. I want to support the business model that doesn’t rely on showing me ads. In a perfect world, this would mean that the features and algorithms of YouTube would change to prioritize me as a user, rather than pushing constant consumption, but with Google its baby steps.
- scotty79 3y ago
  There's no lasting "paid, without ads" model. There's only "free, with ads" and "paid, with ads eventually". https://www.amazonforum.com/s/question/0D54P000079nP9wSAE/how-do-you-turn-off-ads-in-prime-video https://www.amazonforum.com/s/question/0D54P000079nP9wSAE/ho...
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    There's no lasting pizza either, because tomorrow it has been eaten. So you should never buy a pizza or any other food, because after a while it has literally turned to shit.
    - scotty79 3y ago
      free with ads seems to be lasting business model

itsdrewmiller 3y ago

It's not just hacker news! They were up in arms about some actual analysis of search quality here: https://danluu.com/seo-spam/ https://danluu.com/seo-spam/ Another common response is >Your table is wrong. I tried these queries on Kagi and got Good results for the queries [but phrase much more strongly] I'm not sure why people feel so strongly about Kagi but, all of these kinds of responses so far have come from Kagi users. No one has gotten good results for the tire, transistor, or snow queries (note, again, that this is not a query looking for a daily forecast, as clearly implied by the "winter 2023" in the query), nor are the results for the other queries very good if you don't have an ad blocker. I suppose it's possible that the next person who tells me this actually has good results, but that seems fairly unlikely given the zero percent correctness rate so far. For example, one user claimed that the results were all good, but they pinned GitHub results and only ran the queries for which you'd get a good result on GitHub. This is actually worse than you get if you use Google or Bing and write good queries since you'll get noise in your results when GitHub is the wrong place to search. Of course you make a similar claim that Bing is amazing is you write non-naive queries, so it's curious that so many Kagi users are angrily writing me about this and no Google or Bing users. Kagi appears to have tapped into the same vein that Tesla and Apple have managed to tap into, where users become incensed that someone is criticizing something they love and then write nonsensical defenses of their favorite product, which bodes well for Kagi. I've gotten comments like this from not just one Kagi user, but many.

dotnet00 3y ago
I'm not really a fan of this person's dismissive attitude, they're trying to avoid dealing with domain rank adjustments, understandably so the results are comparable, but the adjustments are part of the value add. The testing methodology is also odd, looking specifically for yt-dlp when asking for "download youtube video", when the web based downloaders that most of the big engines turn up on top make more sense for the average user, both due to not having to install a command line tool and due to not necessarily being on a device the tool can be installed on. I've often used the top Kagi result, and it has worked fine, yet has been labeled as scammy by the evaluator. IIRC that site also ranks high in Google's results. For adblock they expect specifically ublock origin, and consider ABP to not count despite it also being a very popular blocker. Them complaining about why it's only Kagi users reaching out to him also seems unnecessarily aggressive, eg I've found their article through you, in the context of Kagi, so if I were to comment, it'd obviously be in that context. However, how likely is this article to be brought up in the context of Bing, Google, ChatGPT or DDG, where there are many more carefully thought out and less dismissive comparisons and discussions out there?
- itsdrewmiller 3y ago
  fwiw I agree with you that the evaluation criteria here are not ones that I particularly care about - I'm generally pretty happy with AI-first and then expanding to search engines if I can't get what I want there. My main intent was to note that Kagi users are just genuinely that enthusiastic, since GP at least lightly implied there might be some astroturfing going on.

dotnet00 3y ago

I think it's just that search engine quality comes up often, and through the recent very popular Kagi threads, a lot of HN users have ended up at least giving it a try. In a sense it's targeted advertising, since HN users are very likely to be power users who care about a paid search engine for one reason or another. But it's still organic in the sense that the articles posted are ultimately just the regular search engine discourse or otherwise not content specifically crafted for the purpose of advertisement.

iamthepieman 3y ago

Well you're right. I'm a shill for kagi. The experience has totally converted me. However, I'm not affiliated so I'm an organic shill - healthier and less toxic.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

op00to 3y ago

I feel it’s much more that people on HN are able to evaluate that Kagi is much better than Google, and really want other people to see that. Unfortunately, shitty search results are usually good enough for most people, so it’s hard to justify the switch.

tstrimple 3y ago

I'm a happy Kagi user. It's not ground breaking or anything I'd even recommend to most people. It's a slightly worse Google search, with substantially better power usability. Normal, every day searches could be done on either Google or Kagi and the Google results are slightly better especially with regard to geo based critera. I don't have to specify "Name of City" in Google nearly as often as I do in Kagi. However, when I'm trying to find some archaic technical solutions that I know is out there on the web somewhere, Google just can't really do the job any more at all. Exact search doesn't even work! Kagi's filters DO work, and the ability to black list stackoverflow scrapers cuts out a lot of the useless noise. It's at those times when Kagi earns its place.

wetpaws 3y ago

[dead]

al_borland 3y ago

I talk about it here, but I first stumbled across it on Mastodon. I think it’s more that the type of users Mastodon and HN attracts are the same type of people to pay for a search engine and be excited about a search engine. I have long hated that “free with ads” is the first and only business model anyone thinks can work on the internet, so I want to support companies that are willing to push back against that. Ads in search create a conflict of interest that I don’t like. Ads in most products create a conflict of interest I don’t like. I pay for YouTube Premium for a similar ideological reason. I want to support the business model that doesn’t rely on showing me ads. In a perfect world, this would mean that the features and algorithms of YouTube would change to prioritize me as a user, rather than pushing constant consumption, but with Google its baby steps.

scotty79 3y ago
There's no lasting "paid, without ads" model. There's only "free, with ads" and "paid, with ads eventually". https://www.amazonforum.com/s/question/0D54P000079nP9wSAE/how-do-you-turn-off-ads-in-prime-video https://www.amazonforum.com/s/question/0D54P000079nP9wSAE/ho...
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  There's no lasting pizza either, because tomorrow it has been eaten. So you should never buy a pizza or any other food, because after a while it has literally turned to shit.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    free with ads seems to be lasting business model