16 ms·

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?
- hackandthink 3y ago
  I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. Losing 40% is much better than losing 100%. (Also it's Mearsheimer, what a joke)
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.
    - armitron 3y ago
      That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.
      - riku_iki 3y ago
        that's up to them to decide how is better to live and what is better to die for.
- garaetjjte 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Finland faced way worse population odds in the Winter war, yet still managed to stop the Soviets. They had to concede some territory, but it was very far from a surrender.
    - argentier 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        When did Soviet troops parade in Helsinki? When did Finland join USSR as one of its republics? Because that's what would happen if Finland surrendered. Finland was part of Russian empire just 20-something years ago, Stalin wouldn't be happy with just sliver of the land unless he was forced to a compromise.
  - Etherlord87 3y ago
    Make an experiment and try to predict what would happen otherwise. Or just read my prediction below. Countries who don't force people to fight are: - much weaker in the case of war, - with such policies not being (a well hidden) secret, an attractive target for a hostile country. So such countries are going to statistically be attacked more often, and statistically lose more often. So if you don't counter those statistical downsides somehow, you should expect such human-rights-respecting countries to eventually be displaced by less human-righty countries. With NATO, advanced technology and enough people willing to fight you indeed might not need to force a draft; but clearly not the case for Ukraine.
    - garaetjjte 3y ago
      I don't have perfect solution, but "to avoid being defeated by evil we must become evil ourselves" is not really the point. There are things that are lose-lose, making war worse for both sides. For things like chemical weapons we have treaties banning it, while for conscription all politicians are quiet about while pretending to care about human rights.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  I find it interesting that it is always Ukraine that should surrender and not sacrifice their people. When Russia is sacrificing its people in pointless invasion that has been stuck in stalemate for a year. They could end the war, and their suffering, tomorrow. They probably could even negotiate keeping Crimea.
torlok 3y ago
It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to tell an invaded nation, with countless atrocities commited against them, to just give up and move on.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.
  - hackandthink 3y ago
    Fighting to the last Ukrainian is even more patronizing.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Parroting Kremlin propaganda, nice. It's the same spirit, Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, they just mindlessly obey orders to die for their NATO overlords.
    - type0 3y ago
      Real patronizing is not helping your friends with weapons after you promised to do so
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Plenty of countries have surrendered in the past. Like telling the Japanese they should surrender is so patronizing.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      To be clear, are you equating WW2 Japan to Ukraine here? Don't you see some major differences between the role of the two in their respective wars?
riku_iki 3y ago
> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits Ukraine made lots of deals with Russia about all kinds of cease fires since 2014, they didn't help with anything. Putin will collect more strength, and grab whatever he decide and will be allowed to grab.
peutetre 3y ago
And after you give up on Ukraine what's next? Georgia? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? Lithuania? More? They're all fair game for Russia are they? Russia will find your submissiveness very helpful.
- argentier 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - peutetre 3y ago
    > Domino theory nonsense. It isn't theory. It's a practical understanding of who and what Putin and the Russia state are. The practical reality is that Russia has been expanding by increments. First Georgia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War Then Crimea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea And now they're trying for more of Ukraine. Submission and appeasement don't lead to good outcomes. > why did they offer Ukraine a peace deal Russia can end the war tomorrow. All Russia needs to do is get out of Ukraine. All of it. Simple to do, easy to achieve. That's the best peace deal Russia can offer.
    - argentier 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - peutetre 3y ago
        Of course it's serious. It's serious enough for Ukrainians to be dying every day for the defense of their nation. Russians are dying every day too. Putin can save many Russian lives with a simple order to get out of Ukraine. Putin plainly values his vanity over the lives of the Russian people.
        argentier 3y ago
        It's about Russian security, not Putin's vanity. Please try to raise the level of discourse beyond the boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. This is serious, deadly serious, and seeing it treated so lightly is painful.
Etherlord87 3y ago
> I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). Aren't those statements contradicting as at least two separate sets of ideas? If you lack fighting spirit, you don't want to fight. So you should want more money spent on weapons, so that you don't have to fight. Aristotle said "if you want peace, prepare for war". If you don't want to fight, you should be afraid of everyone who does: e.g. russia. putin clearly said he wants to restore the old ussr borders. This means eventually taking eastern Germany. And then you just have to naively assume if he succeeds at that, he will stop at that. I mean, let's be honest, he can't possibly live that long to see his plan fully completed, but let's say he has successors continuing his work. I know that there is this comfortable seemingly impenetrable boundary of NATO alliance: but recently Trump said he would invite putin to attack on NATO members that don't put enough GDP % into military spending (e.g. Germany), and new Slovakian government is significantly more prorussian (meeting with russia and Hungary). In January 2022 experts almost unanimously said it would be ridiculous for russia to attack Ukraine. Don't be afraid of russia, but also act to actually support your peace of mind.
_kbh_ 3y ago
[dead]
type0 3y ago
> If they wait too long there won't be any deal. There is no deal on the table, there never was. Putin wants them to surrender and more or less dissolve the army so he can take the rest without the fight.
mopsi 3y ago
> (live in Germany) East or West? :)
- hackandthink 3y ago
  Lived all my live in the West and West Berlin, worked a few years in East Berlin. But you have a point. East Germans are much more sceptical of supporting the war. They are tired of propaganda. (it seems to be different in Poland: Sikorski is a crazy war hawk, don't know about ordinary polish people)
  - zluudd 3y ago
    we are all tired of propaganda, especially from the Tagesschau

The_Colonel 3y ago

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

hackandthink 3y ago
I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. Losing 40% is much better than losing 100%. (Also it's Mearsheimer, what a joke)
- riku_iki 3y ago
  > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.
  - armitron 3y ago
    That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      that's up to them to decide how is better to live and what is better to die for.
garaetjjte 3y ago
[flagged]
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Finland faced way worse population odds in the Winter war, yet still managed to stop the Soviets. They had to concede some territory, but it was very far from a surrender.
  - argentier 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      When did Soviet troops parade in Helsinki? When did Finland join USSR as one of its republics? Because that's what would happen if Finland surrendered. Finland was part of Russian empire just 20-something years ago, Stalin wouldn't be happy with just sliver of the land unless he was forced to a compromise.
- Etherlord87 3y ago
  Make an experiment and try to predict what would happen otherwise. Or just read my prediction below. Countries who don't force people to fight are: - much weaker in the case of war, - with such policies not being (a well hidden) secret, an attractive target for a hostile country. So such countries are going to statistically be attacked more often, and statistically lose more often. So if you don't counter those statistical downsides somehow, you should expect such human-rights-respecting countries to eventually be displaced by less human-righty countries. With NATO, advanced technology and enough people willing to fight you indeed might not need to force a draft; but clearly not the case for Ukraine.
  - garaetjjte 3y ago
    I don't have perfect solution, but "to avoid being defeated by evil we must become evil ourselves" is not really the point. There are things that are lose-lose, making war worse for both sides. For things like chemical weapons we have treaties banning it, while for conscription all politicians are quiet about while pretending to care about human rights.
ianburrell 3y ago
I find it interesting that it is always Ukraine that should surrender and not sacrifice their people. When Russia is sacrificing its people in pointless invasion that has been stuck in stalemate for a year. They could end the war, and their suffering, tomorrow. They probably could even negotiate keeping Crimea.

torlok 3y ago

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to tell an invaded nation, with countless atrocities commited against them, to just give up and move on.

The_Colonel 3y ago
It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.
- hackandthink 3y ago
  Fighting to the last Ukrainian is even more patronizing.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Parroting Kremlin propaganda, nice. It's the same spirit, Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, they just mindlessly obey orders to die for their NATO overlords.
  - type0 3y ago
    Real patronizing is not helping your friends with weapons after you promised to do so
- kelipso 3y ago
  Plenty of countries have surrendered in the past. Like telling the Japanese they should surrender is so patronizing.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    To be clear, are you equating WW2 Japan to Ukraine here? Don't you see some major differences between the role of the two in their respective wars?

riku_iki 3y ago

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits Ukraine made lots of deals with Russia about all kinds of cease fires since 2014, they didn't help with anything. Putin will collect more strength, and grab whatever he decide and will be allowed to grab.

peutetre 3y ago

And after you give up on Ukraine what's next? Georgia? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? Lithuania? More? They're all fair game for Russia are they? Russia will find your submissiveness very helpful.

argentier 3y ago
[flagged]
- peutetre 3y ago
  > Domino theory nonsense. It isn't theory. It's a practical understanding of who and what Putin and the Russia state are. The practical reality is that Russia has been expanding by increments. First Georgia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War Then Crimea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Crimea And now they're trying for more of Ukraine. Submission and appeasement don't lead to good outcomes. > why did they offer Ukraine a peace deal Russia can end the war tomorrow. All Russia needs to do is get out of Ukraine. All of it. Simple to do, easy to achieve. That's the best peace deal Russia can offer.
  - argentier 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - peutetre 3y ago
      Of course it's serious. It's serious enough for Ukrainians to be dying every day for the defense of their nation. Russians are dying every day too. Putin can save many Russian lives with a simple order to get out of Ukraine. Putin plainly values his vanity over the lives of the Russian people.
      - argentier 3y ago
        It's about Russian security, not Putin's vanity. Please try to raise the level of discourse beyond the boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. This is serious, deadly serious, and seeing it treated so lightly is painful.

Etherlord87 3y ago

> I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). Aren't those statements contradicting as at least two separate sets of ideas? If you lack fighting spirit, you don't want to fight. So you should want more money spent on weapons, so that you don't have to fight. Aristotle said "if you want peace, prepare for war". If you don't want to fight, you should be afraid of everyone who does: e.g. russia. putin clearly said he wants to restore the old ussr borders. This means eventually taking eastern Germany. And then you just have to naively assume if he succeeds at that, he will stop at that. I mean, let's be honest, he can't possibly live that long to see his plan fully completed, but let's say he has successors continuing his work. I know that there is this comfortable seemingly impenetrable boundary of NATO alliance: but recently Trump said he would invite putin to attack on NATO members that don't put enough GDP % into military spending (e.g. Germany), and new Slovakian government is significantly more prorussian (meeting with russia and Hungary). In January 2022 experts almost unanimously said it would be ridiculous for russia to attack Ukraine. Don't be afraid of russia, but also act to actually support your peace of mind.

_kbh_ 3y ago

[dead]

type0 3y ago

> If they wait too long there won't be any deal. There is no deal on the table, there never was. Putin wants them to surrender and more or less dissolve the army so he can take the rest without the fight.

mopsi 3y ago

> (live in Germany) East or West? :)

hackandthink 3y ago
Lived all my live in the West and West Berlin, worked a few years in East Berlin. But you have a point. East Germans are much more sceptical of supporting the war. They are tired of propaganda. (it seems to be different in Poland: Sikorski is a crazy war hawk, don't know about ordinary polish people)
- zluudd 3y ago
  we are all tired of propaganda, especially from the Tagesschau