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Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms indust

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

jevoten 3y ago
> cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform, because that's not something anyone is willing to die for. It means cultivating the dreaded nationalism.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?
  - jevoten 3y ago
    Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.
      - jevoten 3y ago
        > Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on them, because the costs of such an adventure were considered too high. A big part of this deterrence was a population willing to fight to defend their homeland.
        type0 3y ago
        it's a bit more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
        tim333 3y ago
        Also of course the USSR did invade Finland but got stopped before they could take that much territory, maybe a bit like what will happen in Ukraine.
        type0 3y ago
        Not at all like in Ukraine, winter war ended because ww2 started, though you could also see it as the beginning of the same war
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        > Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland To be fair these aren't exactly the most relevant examples. On paper the balance of power economically (and military to a somewhat lesser degree) is certainly on the side of the EU/NATO. It would be relative pretty cheap to invest enough just to deter a second rate country (besides nukes) like Russia.
    - Wytwwww 3y ago
      Is Italy threatening to nuke or invade Germany because the Germans won't let them annex Austria? I don't think so.. Or are you suggesting that people can just move to another place when their home country gets taken over by fascist imperialists? Because that doesn't really scale that well...
hackandthink 3y ago
I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?
  - hackandthink 3y ago
    I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. Losing 40% is much better than losing 100%. (Also it's Mearsheimer, what a joke)
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.
      - armitron 3y ago
        That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.
leereeves 3y ago
Nobody wants to lie in the trenches to protect other people's wealth, but that's what usually happens. The poor are sent to fight and die, or to return home to poverty and disability if they survive. I'm amazed anyone is willing to sign up to risk their life for $2K/month, even here in the US where military service has long been glorified.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  As with many things Gen Z is leading the way in breaking the mold (in a good way in my opinion) [1]:https://www.wavy.com/news/military/u-s-military-sees-record-breaking-low-recruitment-numbers/ https://www.wavy.com/news/military/u-s-military-sees-record-...
- Etherlord87 3y ago
  This is why you need various manipulation* techniques: religion (to decrease the fear of death), patriotism, anger, glorification of war and heroism... I sometimes wonder if maybe the poor state of modern education is not just incompetence or a result of a cynical idea "stupid society is easier to control", but instead someone analyzed that an intelligent society would become atheist/cynical/pragmatic etc. resulting in severly decreased motivation to fight for the government. * I think the word "manipulation" implies an intent to mislead someone, while some techniques influencing others are used by people unaware of the effects or (in)correctness of the propaganda; maybe rather than "manipulation" I should say "indoctrination".
  - tim333 3y ago
    If you look back at history mankind seems quite naturally inclined towards fighting wars. The manipulation techniques are more needed to maintain peace. Indeed if you look at our closest animal relatives, the chimps, they are quite inclined to wipe out their neighbours without needing religion or cash payment.
- oneshtein 3y ago
  Your speech targeted at young men with no family and children, so they may think that they protect "wealth".
ajb 3y ago
I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. For example, the UK citizenry was almost completely pacifist two years before world war II, much more than Germany is now, and for stronger reasons; having lost a huge number of men during world war I. It didn't take the population very long at all to change its ideas once it was clear what was going to happen. People make shallow remarks. You can't use that to predict what they will do when the chips are down.
seydor 3y ago
It s not that european nations arent aggressive (unfortunately nationalism is only sleeping in Europe, not dead). But the idea of collective european nation only appeals to the 3-4 core countries. Most eu nations have a different notion of national interests. Even with Ukraine which is supported by all, the level of support and expectations vary very widely

jevoten 3y ago

> cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform, because that's not something anyone is willing to die for. It means cultivating the dreaded nationalism.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?
- jevoten 3y ago
  Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.
    - jevoten 3y ago
      > Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on them, because the costs of such an adventure were considered too high. A big part of this deterrence was a population willing to fight to defend their homeland.
        type0 3y ago
        it's a bit more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
        tim333 3y ago
        Also of course the USSR did invade Finland but got stopped before they could take that much territory, maybe a bit like what will happen in Ukraine.
        type0 3y ago
        Not at all like in Ukraine, winter war ended because ww2 started, though you could also see it as the beginning of the same war
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        > Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland To be fair these aren't exactly the most relevant examples. On paper the balance of power economically (and military to a somewhat lesser degree) is certainly on the side of the EU/NATO. It would be relative pretty cheap to invest enough just to deter a second rate country (besides nukes) like Russia.
  - Wytwwww 3y ago
    Is Italy threatening to nuke or invade Germany because the Germans won't let them annex Austria? I don't think so.. Or are you suggesting that people can just move to another place when their home country gets taken over by fascist imperialists? Because that doesn't really scale that well...

hackandthink 3y ago

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?
- hackandthink 3y ago
  I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. Losing 40% is much better than losing 100%. (Also it's Mearsheimer, what a joke)
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.
    - armitron 3y ago
      That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.

leereeves 3y ago

Nobody wants to lie in the trenches to protect other people's wealth, but that's what usually happens. The poor are sent to fight and die, or to return home to poverty and disability if they survive. I'm amazed anyone is willing to sign up to risk their life for $2K/month, even here in the US where military service has long been glorified.

nebula8804 3y ago
As with many things Gen Z is leading the way in breaking the mold (in a good way in my opinion) [1]:https://www.wavy.com/news/military/u-s-military-sees-record-breaking-low-recruitment-numbers/ https://www.wavy.com/news/military/u-s-military-sees-record-...
Etherlord87 3y ago
This is why you need various manipulation* techniques: religion (to decrease the fear of death), patriotism, anger, glorification of war and heroism... I sometimes wonder if maybe the poor state of modern education is not just incompetence or a result of a cynical idea "stupid society is easier to control", but instead someone analyzed that an intelligent society would become atheist/cynical/pragmatic etc. resulting in severly decreased motivation to fight for the government. * I think the word "manipulation" implies an intent to mislead someone, while some techniques influencing others are used by people unaware of the effects or (in)correctness of the propaganda; maybe rather than "manipulation" I should say "indoctrination".
- tim333 3y ago
  If you look back at history mankind seems quite naturally inclined towards fighting wars. The manipulation techniques are more needed to maintain peace. Indeed if you look at our closest animal relatives, the chimps, they are quite inclined to wipe out their neighbours without needing religion or cash payment.
oneshtein 3y ago
Your speech targeted at young men with no family and children, so they may think that they protect "wealth".

ajb 3y ago

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. For example, the UK citizenry was almost completely pacifist two years before world war II, much more than Germany is now, and for stronger reasons; having lost a huge number of men during world war I. It didn't take the population very long at all to change its ideas once it was clear what was going to happen. People make shallow remarks. You can't use that to predict what they will do when the chips are down.

seydor 3y ago

It s not that european nations arent aggressive (unfortunately nationalism is only sleeping in Europe, not dead). But the idea of collective european nation only appeals to the 3-4 core countries. Most eu nations have a different notion of national interests. Even with Ukraine which is supported by all, the level of support and expectations vary very widely