5 ms·

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right. If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't mean that stealing is morally permissible. Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple doesn't mean their criticism of Microsoft is incorrect.

rbanffy 14y ago
> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right Touché! Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too. And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  >Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.
  - throwaway64 14y ago
    exactly zero windows applications that exist currently will run under metro/winRT, so by extension, windows ARM.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      Oddly enough it seems Firefox is able to JIT on Metro/x86
      - makomk 14y ago
        That's because they're not running under WinRT on x86. Apparently there's a special exemption in the x86 version of Windows 8 which allows the default web browser to provide a Metro interface even though it's still a Win32 application.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Win8 is Windows kernel + Windows API + Windows RT. Win8 on ARM is Win8 minus Windows API. It's not a new product - it's a castrated version of the latest version of an old product.
    - cooldeal 14y ago
      By that metric, neither iOS nor Android are new, they're just castrated versions of OS X and Linux. An OS is much more than it's kernel.
azakai 14y ago
> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  WinRT is not a new product - it's a new API sitting on top of mostly the same Windows kernel they use for Windows 7.
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    Windows RT = New product meant for ARM devices (the current topic of discussion) WinRT = New runtime API for Metro apps that will run on both Windows 8 and Windows RT.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      So, it's as much a new product as were Silverlight, WPF and .NET - all layers that allowed apps written for them to run on Windows-based devices. The kernel underneath is the same.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  >Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. Care to link to them? I am not being facetious, I am genuinely interested in seeing their official statements on this and if they've publicly called Apple to open up iOS to Firefox. Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.
  - azakai 14y ago
    > Care to link to them? For example, here is criticism from a top Mozilla dev on iOS's closedness, http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_frm/thread/3f6f35a0d9447c23/28e1bd20f93a36ac?lnk=gst&q=ios+closed#28e1bd20f93a36ac http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_f... > Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law. How can criticism of Apple be related to antitrust law? What monopoly do they have?
recoiledsnake 14y ago
>The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right. If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't mean that stealing is morally permissible. Bad analogy. A better analogy would be to believe that stealing is wrong, but only loudly blame A for stealing, but be quiet when B does the exact same thing. Maybe the article should've said bias instead of hypocrisy. >Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple doesn't mean their criticism of Microsoft is incorrect. Did the article imply or say that?
- koeselitz 14y ago
  The article didn't say that, no; the fact that the whole article is a criticism of Mozilla would seem to be an implication that that criticism would extend to Mozilla's argument, but that's an indirect implication, to be sure. But the trouble is that, if that wasn't the point of the article, then once again it seems like a rather silly topic for an article. If the author is really purely interested in people who criticize one company but not another for arbitrary reasons, well, I'm not sure I can see much that's very compelling in that. To put it bluntly, if he's not actually talking about the software or freedom or the market or anything of substance - if he really is just saying Mozilla should either shut up or criticize Apple, without any regard to whether the criticism is right or the companies being criticized are wrong - then he is being petty, plain and simple.

rbanffy 14y ago

> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right Touché! Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too. And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.

cooldeal 14y ago
>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.
- throwaway64 14y ago
  exactly zero windows applications that exist currently will run under metro/winRT, so by extension, windows ARM.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Oddly enough it seems Firefox is able to JIT on Metro/x86
    - makomk 14y ago
      That's because they're not running under WinRT on x86. Apparently there's a special exemption in the x86 version of Windows 8 which allows the default web browser to provide a Metro interface even though it's still a Win32 application.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  Win8 is Windows kernel + Windows API + Windows RT. Win8 on ARM is Win8 minus Windows API. It's not a new product - it's a castrated version of the latest version of an old product.
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    By that metric, neither iOS nor Android are new, they're just castrated versions of OS X and Linux. An OS is much more than it's kernel.

azakai 14y ago

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

rbanffy 14y ago
WinRT is not a new product - it's a new API sitting on top of mostly the same Windows kernel they use for Windows 7.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  Windows RT = New product meant for ARM devices (the current topic of discussion) WinRT = New runtime API for Metro apps that will run on both Windows 8 and Windows RT.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    So, it's as much a new product as were Silverlight, WPF and .NET - all layers that allowed apps written for them to run on Windows-based devices. The kernel underneath is the same.
cooldeal 14y ago
>Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. Care to link to them? I am not being facetious, I am genuinely interested in seeing their official statements on this and if they've publicly called Apple to open up iOS to Firefox. Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law.
- azakai 14y ago
  > Care to link to them? For example, here is criticism from a top Mozilla dev on iOS's closedness, http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_frm/thread/3f6f35a0d9447c23/28e1bd20f93a36ac?lnk=gst&q=ios+closed#28e1bd20f93a36ac http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_f... > Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law. How can criticism of Apple be related to antitrust law? What monopoly do they have?

recoiledsnake 14y ago

>The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right. If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't mean that stealing is morally permissible. Bad analogy. A better analogy would be to believe that stealing is wrong, but only loudly blame A for stealing, but be quiet when B does the exact same thing. Maybe the article should've said bias instead of hypocrisy. >Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple doesn't mean their criticism of Microsoft is incorrect. Did the article imply or say that?

koeselitz 14y ago
The article didn't say that, no; the fact that the whole article is a criticism of Mozilla would seem to be an implication that that criticism would extend to Mozilla's argument, but that's an indirect implication, to be sure. But the trouble is that, if that wasn't the point of the article, then once again it seems like a rather silly topic for an article. If the author is really purely interested in people who criticize one company but not another for arbitrary reasons, well, I'm not sure I can see much that's very compelling in that. To put it bluntly, if he's not actually talking about the software or freedom or the market or anything of substance - if he really is just saying Mozilla should either shut up or criticize Apple, without any regard to whether the criticism is right or the companies being criticized are wrong - then he is being petty, plain and simple.