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They stated that AFTER they just cut the network access to the hosts. It isn’t as though we were doing anything ethically or legally wrong. We were running rpc

by SEJeff 3y ago

They stated that AFTER they just cut the network access to the hosts. It isn’t as though we were doing anything ethically or legally wrong. We were running rpc nodes for legit applications and a validator to secure the network. For me, who’s worked in 50,000+ bare metal Linux environments before, it was just so surprising how sudden and violent it was. Their customer support was amazing until it wasn’t. Just let it be a lesson, they will arbitrarily change their mind and put your nodes running your business at risk. Even if you’ve broken no laws and are operating in good faith. We were not running and proof of work nonsense that breaks the hardware or uses excess electricity.

sgift 3y ago
> It isn’t as though we were doing anything ethically or legally wrong. Legally? Well, they probably have a "if we think you do something we don't like we can kick you off" clause. Ethically? Eh .. Crypto. Ethical. Opinions differ.
- shaism 3y ago
  I am not a big fan of crypto either, but don’t understand why crypto (the technology itself) would be unethical. Could you explain?
  - Cryptoanti 3y ago
    I don't know any working thing using crypto in a way that it acutally make sense and couldn't be already be done easier and similiar safe. Even in big companies you always see examples which break the technology like creating something on the blockchain which has a connection to the real world.
    - ajimix 3y ago
      Try to send some big amount of money internationally and you will see why crypto is the future. With regular banks it takes days, weeks and many times months due to intermediate banks, AML questions, reviews, etc and have very high costs associated for simple transfers of money hardly earned. With cryptocurrencies it takes seconds or minutes and no questions asked with very low fees
  - edmundsauto 3y ago
    Energy use that doesn't deliver concrete value to the world. Mostly just speculators and gambling, but uses a a couple hundred TWh of electricity worldwide. Yes yes I know, some applications are lower energy usage but parent comment is asking about the ethics of crypto in general.
    - zrn900 3y ago
      > Energy use that doesn't deliver concrete value to the world How is that any different from fast trading computers producing 'wealth' by juggling inflated derivatives and 'generating' water vapor value from hot air...
      - sgift 3y ago
        I don't think these are ethical either.
    - snypher 3y ago
      Wait until you find out what we do with all the water.
    - throw10920 3y ago
      > Mostly just speculators and gambling, but uses a a couple hundred TWh of electricity worldwide. Parent asked about ethics of crypto, the technology, in general. This comment isn't about the technology, but the applications, and doesn't answer their question.
      - edmundsauto 3y ago
        I don't necessarily think we should separate applications from theory, but to be more crisp, I would probably say the facilitation of money laundering and funding of terrorist groups is something unethical.
        throw10920 3y ago
        > I don't necessarily think we should separate applications from theory Sure, not in general, but shaism was specifically asking for theory, and you replied to them without actually answering their question. And you still haven't. > the facilitation of money laundering and funding of terrorist groups ...and this isn't unique to crypto, either, so it's unclear that it's relevant.
ahofmann 3y ago
You're angry in the wrong direction. It is not their fault that you, or someone in your company, didn't read their TOS. Hetzners service is cheap, this attracts bad actors. In their eyes you are a bad actor and according to their TOS they're right. I, as a customer of Hetzner, are happy about how they deal with people abusing their services.
- SEJeff 3y ago
  We read their ToS. Our lawyers read their ToS. It has a vague “we can kick you off if we choose to” part, but removing service with no recourse was not ok. So we told them we would sue them if they didn’t give us access to shred sensitive data and they relented.
  - ahofmann 3y ago
    This is the sentence, in Hetzners ToS, that you're referring to: "In the case of non-compliance, we are entitled to lock your access to the Service and/or to your account." Source: https://www.hetzner.com/de/legal/terms-and-conditions/#16 https://www.hetzner.com/de/legal/terms-and-conditions/#16 If your lawyers thought that this line means something different than "don't use crypto, mining, etc. we will lock you out", you should change/sue your lawyers. This is a clear as it gets, I see zero fault on Hetzners side.
Cryptoanti 3y ago
Honestly hetzner was never the 'high end / high quality' cloud provider for me. They have decend hardware and infra but no encryption on rest and everything else a real business requires (certifications etc.). But i'm so dismissive about all shitty crypto because no one ever showed me a good use case, as others said, i think its great that hetzner has this tos. -So what do you actually do?- forget about it, finance got it...

by SEJeff 3y ago

sgift 3y ago

> It isn’t as though we were doing anything ethically or legally wrong. Legally? Well, they probably have a "if we think you do something we don't like we can kick you off" clause. Ethically? Eh .. Crypto. Ethical. Opinions differ.

shaism 3y ago
I am not a big fan of crypto either, but don’t understand why crypto (the technology itself) would be unethical. Could you explain?
- Cryptoanti 3y ago
  I don't know any working thing using crypto in a way that it acutally make sense and couldn't be already be done easier and similiar safe. Even in big companies you always see examples which break the technology like creating something on the blockchain which has a connection to the real world.
  - ajimix 3y ago
    Try to send some big amount of money internationally and you will see why crypto is the future. With regular banks it takes days, weeks and many times months due to intermediate banks, AML questions, reviews, etc and have very high costs associated for simple transfers of money hardly earned. With cryptocurrencies it takes seconds or minutes and no questions asked with very low fees
- edmundsauto 3y ago
  Energy use that doesn't deliver concrete value to the world. Mostly just speculators and gambling, but uses a a couple hundred TWh of electricity worldwide. Yes yes I know, some applications are lower energy usage but parent comment is asking about the ethics of crypto in general.
  - zrn900 3y ago
    > Energy use that doesn't deliver concrete value to the world How is that any different from fast trading computers producing 'wealth' by juggling inflated derivatives and 'generating' water vapor value from hot air...
    - sgift 3y ago
      I don't think these are ethical either.
  - snypher 3y ago
    Wait until you find out what we do with all the water.
  - throw10920 3y ago
    > Mostly just speculators and gambling, but uses a a couple hundred TWh of electricity worldwide. Parent asked about ethics of crypto, the technology, in general. This comment isn't about the technology, but the applications, and doesn't answer their question.
    - edmundsauto 3y ago
      I don't necessarily think we should separate applications from theory, but to be more crisp, I would probably say the facilitation of money laundering and funding of terrorist groups is something unethical.
      - throw10920 3y ago
        > I don't necessarily think we should separate applications from theory Sure, not in general, but shaism was specifically asking for theory, and you replied to them without actually answering their question. And you still haven't. > the facilitation of money laundering and funding of terrorist groups ...and this isn't unique to crypto, either, so it's unclear that it's relevant.

ahofmann 3y ago

You're angry in the wrong direction. It is not their fault that you, or someone in your company, didn't read their TOS. Hetzners service is cheap, this attracts bad actors. In their eyes you are a bad actor and according to their TOS they're right. I, as a customer of Hetzner, are happy about how they deal with people abusing their services.

SEJeff 3y ago
We read their ToS. Our lawyers read their ToS. It has a vague “we can kick you off if we choose to” part, but removing service with no recourse was not ok. So we told them we would sue them if they didn’t give us access to shred sensitive data and they relented.
- ahofmann 3y ago
  This is the sentence, in Hetzners ToS, that you're referring to: "In the case of non-compliance, we are entitled to lock your access to the Service and/or to your account." Source: https://www.hetzner.com/de/legal/terms-and-conditions/#16 https://www.hetzner.com/de/legal/terms-and-conditions/#16 If your lawyers thought that this line means something different than "don't use crypto, mining, etc. we will lock you out", you should change/sue your lawyers. This is a clear as it gets, I see zero fault on Hetzners side.

Cryptoanti 3y ago

Honestly hetzner was never the 'high end / high quality' cloud provider for me. They have decend hardware and infra but no encryption on rest and everything else a real business requires (certifications etc.). But i'm so dismissive about all shitty crypto because no one ever showed me a good use case, as others said, i think its great that hetzner has this tos. -So what do you actually do?- forget about it, finance got it...