4 ms·

LibraryBox

100 points by Tomte 3y ago

nicholashead 3y ago
Another project that is still going as far as I know: https://internet-in-a-box.org/ https://internet-in-a-box.org/
splitbrain 3y ago
Hmm, I can't find any information what content is actually distributed by the box. Is this just an "empty" server?
- Tomte 3y ago
  Yes, you distribute whatever you like. It's only infrastructure, not content.
- rkda 3y ago
  Yeah. It's all up to you. I put public domain and Creative Commons licensed books in mine.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- griffey 3y ago
  At one point there was a sort of "starter" content set that was made up of CC or public domain works that was distributed by the community as a torrent. But the project itself was always about the hardware/infrastructure aspect, not the content itself.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
duxup 3y ago
Neat idea, although no longer active. https://jasongriffey.net/librarybox/notactive.php https://jasongriffey.net/librarybox/notactive.php I do wonder how readily people would just connect to such a thing, or how readily they should just trust such a thing...
- chefandy 3y ago
  Great project and Jason is super rad. I'll bet someone with the requisite knowledge could pick it up and run with it. If memory serves me, there was a web server available through a standalone open wifi network.
addandsubtract 3y ago
So how does it work form a user's POV? I connect to the network and then get a "sign-in" like screen that lists all the files on the device? Or does it route all requests to the local server? Can you make this airdrop compatible?
VyseofArcadia 3y ago
> LibraryBox is sadly no longer under development. A combination of hardware/firmware lockdown made the continuation of the project's goals untenable. I've been worried for the last few years that this kind of lockdown is going to be the end of open source OSs for the masses. Right now we have secure boot, and it's feasible but a pain to work around it to, say, install Ubuntu on a Dell XPS. But the next step after that is, "no, you can't disable secure boot. That would be insecure."
- duxup 3y ago
  There's a lot of hardware out there that is available though isn't there? Arduinos, Raspberry Pi ? Maybe not ideal for this situation, but still available, with lots of handy extra hardware rather than relying on repurposing some other hardware not at all meant to be used in this way.
  - VyseofArcadia 3y ago
    That's great for hobbyists and tinkerers, but when Joe Schmoe off the street thinks, "man, I sure am tired of the full screen unskippable ads in Windows 15", he's not going to follow that up with "I guess I'll go buy a low power hobbyist board to tinker with an alternate OS for nerds". Whereas today you can still just install Linux on the same laptop you're already using, and sometimes even Joe Schmoe off the street does just that.
    - duxup 3y ago
      I think maybe you're making a more general statement than what LibraryBox was about. LibraryBox was hardly anything that Joe Schmoe was capable / willing to do either.
      - VyseofArcadia 3y ago
        I am indeed making a more general statement.
    - logtempo 3y ago
theon144 3y ago
The project met the exact same end its predecessor (the PirateBox) did, and for pretty much the same reason. However, the project is quite old, and the focus on reflashing portable routers was a necessity then, but not so anymore - specifically, PirateBox (2011) actually predates the first Raspberry Pi (2012), and especially the first Pi with an onboard Wi-Fi (2016). I'm just wondering, why hasn't a SBC-based alternative popped up yet? I think the project is/was awesome, I actually did maintain 2 public PirateBoxen for a while. Is it a simple lack of interest? The fact LibraryBox tried to pick up after PirateBox kind of suggests otherwise. I feel like it's actually easier now than ever to build a Libary/PirateBox-like project (although I do imagine an on-board network card probably has way worse performance than even those old portable routers). I've even tried to put together an image like that in the past but I couldn't find a reproducible solution for creating raspi images so that put me off, maybe it's time to give it another try...
- duxup 3y ago
  It probably is easier than ever, but if I think about doing it, who is going to randomly connect to my device and download files? And who ... "should" want to with all the security considerations and etc? Still it would be a very cool hobby project none the less.
- palmscenter 3y ago
  The main problem with these projects - which was not much of an issue when the projects started - is that mobile phones of today seek access to web servers at vendors, including the OS source and possibly others such as the phone manufacturer and ISP. The phones balk if they don't connect to those servers. PirateBox and LibraryBox are not just captive portals to Internet connections, they are local content and app servers and don't need the Internet. So when you connect to a Box via Wi-Fi your phone demands to connect to Internet hosts even though this is unnecessary for this use case. This behavior is confusing to the user. Some early solutions involved trying to spoof Apple servers for example, but the names and IPs of these servers kept changing and this kluge became ineffective. The only solution I am aware of is to pre-inform users of a local IP address to browse to once their Wi-Fi is connected to the Box. But depending on the occasion and venue, getting such instructions to the audience and having them follow it, can be its own problem.
at_a_remove 3y ago
This seems nice if you ran a coffeeshop. Load up with expired works of literature and go.
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  It would be a better user experience in a coffee shop to just have a media server on the network. People are already likely connected to your wifi for internet. Setup a local domain and post QR codes for it.
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    Once you go full media, well ... I think that's way more troublesome in terms of local bandwidth and trying to find public domain music and film. Although showing Night of the Living Dead in a coffeehouse does have some kind of amusement value. Still, only works if you own it and have local control.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      As soon as music is involved, ASCAP will come a-knockin' in the US at least. They're legally pugnacious even when they're in the wrong knowing that bar/restaurant/coffee shop/store owners don't have the resources to fight them.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      A media server for books, literature, newspapers, etc. - I don't think they were suggesting sharing/screening movies.
russfink 3y ago
Why can’t I get the same thing with an external USB drive? Bear with me a moment - what does LibraryBox do that’s better than flat file storage? Multiple connections? (Does it do caching as a way of ingesting new content for offline viewing?)
- falcolas 3y ago
  IIRC, it also offered an anonymous forum. Plus, it can be easily "hidden" and remain available without its owner babysitting the hardware.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Security is a big one. No way I'm plugging into some random public USB outlet. Aside from that, I believe they were indeed intended to serve multiple people at once... encampments, communities, short term installations, etc.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > No way I'm plugging into some random public USB outlet. How is LibraryBox better? You would be connecting to a random wifi SSID? > Aside from that, I believe they were indeed intended to serve multiple people at once... encampments, communities, short term installations, etc. Almost any computing device on a network can share files this way, with a bit of configuration.
    - toyg 3y ago
      Afaik, a random WiFi wouldn't be able to exploit local-execution bugs - it would have to use remote exploits, which are harder to pull off, or limit itself to network eavesdropping. USB drives, on the other hand, can trigger execution with local privileges - as well as exploiting bugs in hardware-handling system code, of which there are always plenty.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      Modern network interfaces are safer even in a default config without a local firewall enabled. Not even windows has SMB or the like enabled by default anymore. Theres a lot different sorts of USB devices that thing could pretend to be.
qgin 3y ago
A future version of this might just be a local, offline LLM
- cush 3y ago
  A future version of an ebook library would be an offline large language model? So like, instead of downloading Moby Dick, you can ask for it to be generated?
  - n8fr8too 3y ago
    There is definitely interest in providing off-grid communities easy access to lightweight LLMs... one idea is to use something like: https://github.com/mlc-ai/web-llm https://github.com/mlc-ai/web-llm to deliver it in a browser
    - cush 3y ago
      Oh I see. Was confused. The “this” in OP’s comment is an offline library. An offline LLM would be nice too.
      - qgin 3y ago
        Yeah, to clarify, I didn't mean it would be a direct replacement for literature, just that on the same theme of of providing a resource in places where connectivity is an issue, an LLM is a reasonable way to compress a whole lot of human knowledge into a relatively small space in a usable form.
- butterbox 3y ago
  I am a techno-skeptic most of the time, but I don't think this idea is particularly crazy. Usability-wise, something you can talk to (in your own "low resource" language) is a winner. The catch is that you have users without either the sophistication to size up how trustworthy this model is or to do out-of-band verification (remember: no internet). I think a RAG model serving answers from Wikipedia could be suitably safe, but we'd have to do some user research to know more.
rolobio 3y ago
I have an open-source project that is similar to this. Its purpose is to allow easy creation of an off-grid digital library. It can automatically download videos, archive web pages, PDFs, etc. It has a global search which searches all your files, as well as any Zim files you have downloaded (Wikipedia, etc). It also uses OpenStreetMap to display a map which renders the map tiles offline. I would love more people to use it! Check it out: https://wrolpi.org https://wrolpi.org https://github.com/lrnselfreliance/wrolpi https://github.com/lrnselfreliance/wrolpi
griffey 3y ago
FWIW: one of the other main issues with the project as it neared its end was the move to mandatory SSL connections. By its nature, LibraryBox has to be able to work entirely offline, and trying to sort out how to manage SSL connections in that situation without also causing potential security issues in sensitive use situations...well, we tried and couldn't come up with a reasonable, usable solution to those overlapping issues.
- butterbox 3y ago
  100%. This is something we are trying to solve with Butter Box (https://likebutter.app/box/ https://likebutter.app/box/) but there aren't great answers. I've considered shipping a unique-to-device certificate for e.g. box123.comolamantequilla.com with each box. It doesn't solve the evil maid scenario of someone copying it, but it at least provides TLS. Realistically, our users are offline and mostly not going to verify that comolamantequilla is owned by the organization they're intending to trust.
n8fr8too 3y ago
ButterBox is a semi-spiritual successor to LibraryBox for RPis and similar hardware, and built in collab with the F-Droid project, to provide off-grid app store access (as well as chat, and general file service): https://likebutter.app/box/ https://likebutter.app/box/ https://gitlab.com/likebutter/butterbox-rpi/-/blob/main/docs/en/README.md https://gitlab.com/likebutter/butterbox-rpi/-/blob/main/docs...
- griffey 3y ago
  waves at n8fr8too...
butterbox 3y ago
We build Butter Box, a tool for making life offline a bit smoother. It's based on this same principles and in fact, one of the creators is friends with Jason :-) Ours is tailored for scenarios where Internet is unavailable due to disaster, government shutdown or simply cost. It has an app store, an encrypted (matrix) chat server with a simple web UI, and maps (since you probably didn't download google maps for you area before the Internet went out). We localize the boxes (mostly for central and south america) and have sent a few dozen around the world to communities with various use cases.
- griffey 3y ago
  I haven't done so yet, but I'll throw a link to ButterBox up on the LibraryBox site and suggest people take a look.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
I'm sure I have had routers that you could plug a USB drive into and browse the contents from any device connected to the Wi-Fi. And couldn't you do this with pretty much any random Wi-Fi capable laptop?

LibraryBox

100 points by Tomte 3y ago

nicholashead 3y ago

Another project that is still going as far as I know: https://internet-in-a-box.org/ https://internet-in-a-box.org/

splitbrain 3y ago

Hmm, I can't find any information what content is actually distributed by the box. Is this just an "empty" server?

Tomte 3y ago
Yes, you distribute whatever you like. It's only infrastructure, not content.
rkda 3y ago
Yeah. It's all up to you. I put public domain and Creative Commons licensed books in mine.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
griffey 3y ago
At one point there was a sort of "starter" content set that was made up of CC or public domain works that was distributed by the community as a torrent. But the project itself was always about the hardware/infrastructure aspect, not the content itself.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

duxup 3y ago

Neat idea, although no longer active. https://jasongriffey.net/librarybox/notactive.php https://jasongriffey.net/librarybox/notactive.php I do wonder how readily people would just connect to such a thing, or how readily they should just trust such a thing...

chefandy 3y ago
Great project and Jason is super rad. I'll bet someone with the requisite knowledge could pick it up and run with it. If memory serves me, there was a web server available through a standalone open wifi network.

addandsubtract 3y ago

So how does it work form a user's POV? I connect to the network and then get a "sign-in" like screen that lists all the files on the device? Or does it route all requests to the local server? Can you make this airdrop compatible?

VyseofArcadia 3y ago

> LibraryBox is sadly no longer under development. A combination of hardware/firmware lockdown made the continuation of the project's goals untenable. I've been worried for the last few years that this kind of lockdown is going to be the end of open source OSs for the masses. Right now we have secure boot, and it's feasible but a pain to work around it to, say, install Ubuntu on a Dell XPS. But the next step after that is, "no, you can't disable secure boot. That would be insecure."

duxup 3y ago
There's a lot of hardware out there that is available though isn't there? Arduinos, Raspberry Pi ? Maybe not ideal for this situation, but still available, with lots of handy extra hardware rather than relying on repurposing some other hardware not at all meant to be used in this way.
- VyseofArcadia 3y ago
  That's great for hobbyists and tinkerers, but when Joe Schmoe off the street thinks, "man, I sure am tired of the full screen unskippable ads in Windows 15", he's not going to follow that up with "I guess I'll go buy a low power hobbyist board to tinker with an alternate OS for nerds". Whereas today you can still just install Linux on the same laptop you're already using, and sometimes even Joe Schmoe off the street does just that.
  - duxup 3y ago
    I think maybe you're making a more general statement than what LibraryBox was about. LibraryBox was hardly anything that Joe Schmoe was capable / willing to do either.
    - VyseofArcadia 3y ago
      I am indeed making a more general statement.
  - logtempo 3y ago

theon144 3y ago

The project met the exact same end its predecessor (the PirateBox) did, and for pretty much the same reason. However, the project is quite old, and the focus on reflashing portable routers was a necessity then, but not so anymore - specifically, PirateBox (2011) actually predates the first Raspberry Pi (2012), and especially the first Pi with an onboard Wi-Fi (2016). I'm just wondering, why hasn't a SBC-based alternative popped up yet? I think the project is/was awesome, I actually did maintain 2 public PirateBoxen for a while. Is it a simple lack of interest? The fact LibraryBox tried to pick up after PirateBox kind of suggests otherwise. I feel like it's actually easier now than ever to build a Libary/PirateBox-like project (although I do imagine an on-board network card probably has way worse performance than even those old portable routers). I've even tried to put together an image like that in the past but I couldn't find a reproducible solution for creating raspi images so that put me off, maybe it's time to give it another try...

duxup 3y ago
It probably is easier than ever, but if I think about doing it, who is going to randomly connect to my device and download files? And who ... "should" want to with all the security considerations and etc? Still it would be a very cool hobby project none the less.
palmscenter 3y ago
The main problem with these projects - which was not much of an issue when the projects started - is that mobile phones of today seek access to web servers at vendors, including the OS source and possibly others such as the phone manufacturer and ISP. The phones balk if they don't connect to those servers. PirateBox and LibraryBox are not just captive portals to Internet connections, they are local content and app servers and don't need the Internet. So when you connect to a Box via Wi-Fi your phone demands to connect to Internet hosts even though this is unnecessary for this use case. This behavior is confusing to the user. Some early solutions involved trying to spoof Apple servers for example, but the names and IPs of these servers kept changing and this kluge became ineffective. The only solution I am aware of is to pre-inform users of a local IP address to browse to once their Wi-Fi is connected to the Box. But depending on the occasion and venue, getting such instructions to the audience and having them follow it, can be its own problem.

at_a_remove 3y ago

This seems nice if you ran a coffeeshop. Load up with expired works of literature and go.

tastyfreeze 3y ago
It would be a better user experience in a coffee shop to just have a media server on the network. People are already likely connected to your wifi for internet. Setup a local domain and post QR codes for it.
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  Once you go full media, well ... I think that's way more troublesome in terms of local bandwidth and trying to find public domain music and film. Although showing Night of the Living Dead in a coffeehouse does have some kind of amusement value. Still, only works if you own it and have local control.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    As soon as music is involved, ASCAP will come a-knockin' in the US at least. They're legally pugnacious even when they're in the wrong knowing that bar/restaurant/coffee shop/store owners don't have the resources to fight them.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    A media server for books, literature, newspapers, etc. - I don't think they were suggesting sharing/screening movies.

russfink 3y ago

Why can’t I get the same thing with an external USB drive? Bear with me a moment - what does LibraryBox do that’s better than flat file storage? Multiple connections? (Does it do caching as a way of ingesting new content for offline viewing?)

falcolas 3y ago
IIRC, it also offered an anonymous forum. Plus, it can be easily "hidden" and remain available without its owner babysitting the hardware.
chefandy 3y ago
Security is a big one. No way I'm plugging into some random public USB outlet. Aside from that, I believe they were indeed intended to serve multiple people at once... encampments, communities, short term installations, etc.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > No way I'm plugging into some random public USB outlet. How is LibraryBox better? You would be connecting to a random wifi SSID? > Aside from that, I believe they were indeed intended to serve multiple people at once... encampments, communities, short term installations, etc. Almost any computing device on a network can share files this way, with a bit of configuration.
  - toyg 3y ago
    Afaik, a random WiFi wouldn't be able to exploit local-execution bugs - it would have to use remote exploits, which are harder to pull off, or limit itself to network eavesdropping. USB drives, on the other hand, can trigger execution with local privileges - as well as exploiting bugs in hardware-handling system code, of which there are always plenty.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Modern network interfaces are safer even in a default config without a local firewall enabled. Not even windows has SMB or the like enabled by default anymore. Theres a lot different sorts of USB devices that thing could pretend to be.

qgin 3y ago

A future version of this might just be a local, offline LLM

cush 3y ago
A future version of an ebook library would be an offline large language model? So like, instead of downloading Moby Dick, you can ask for it to be generated?
- n8fr8too 3y ago
  There is definitely interest in providing off-grid communities easy access to lightweight LLMs... one idea is to use something like: https://github.com/mlc-ai/web-llm https://github.com/mlc-ai/web-llm to deliver it in a browser
  - cush 3y ago
    Oh I see. Was confused. The “this” in OP’s comment is an offline library. An offline LLM would be nice too.
    - qgin 3y ago
      Yeah, to clarify, I didn't mean it would be a direct replacement for literature, just that on the same theme of of providing a resource in places where connectivity is an issue, an LLM is a reasonable way to compress a whole lot of human knowledge into a relatively small space in a usable form.
butterbox 3y ago
I am a techno-skeptic most of the time, but I don't think this idea is particularly crazy. Usability-wise, something you can talk to (in your own "low resource" language) is a winner. The catch is that you have users without either the sophistication to size up how trustworthy this model is or to do out-of-band verification (remember: no internet). I think a RAG model serving answers from Wikipedia could be suitably safe, but we'd have to do some user research to know more.

rolobio 3y ago

I have an open-source project that is similar to this. Its purpose is to allow easy creation of an off-grid digital library. It can automatically download videos, archive web pages, PDFs, etc. It has a global search which searches all your files, as well as any Zim files you have downloaded (Wikipedia, etc). It also uses OpenStreetMap to display a map which renders the map tiles offline. I would love more people to use it! Check it out: https://wrolpi.org https://wrolpi.org https://github.com/lrnselfreliance/wrolpi https://github.com/lrnselfreliance/wrolpi

griffey 3y ago

FWIW: one of the other main issues with the project as it neared its end was the move to mandatory SSL connections. By its nature, LibraryBox has to be able to work entirely offline, and trying to sort out how to manage SSL connections in that situation without also causing potential security issues in sensitive use situations...well, we tried and couldn't come up with a reasonable, usable solution to those overlapping issues.

butterbox 3y ago
100%. This is something we are trying to solve with Butter Box (https://likebutter.app/box/ https://likebutter.app/box/) but there aren't great answers. I've considered shipping a unique-to-device certificate for e.g. box123.comolamantequilla.com with each box. It doesn't solve the evil maid scenario of someone copying it, but it at least provides TLS. Realistically, our users are offline and mostly not going to verify that comolamantequilla is owned by the organization they're intending to trust.

n8fr8too 3y ago

ButterBox is a semi-spiritual successor to LibraryBox for RPis and similar hardware, and built in collab with the F-Droid project, to provide off-grid app store access (as well as chat, and general file service): https://likebutter.app/box/ https://likebutter.app/box/ https://gitlab.com/likebutter/butterbox-rpi/-/blob/main/docs/en/README.md https://gitlab.com/likebutter/butterbox-rpi/-/blob/main/docs...

griffey 3y ago
waves at n8fr8too...

butterbox 3y ago

We build Butter Box, a tool for making life offline a bit smoother. It's based on this same principles and in fact, one of the creators is friends with Jason :-) Ours is tailored for scenarios where Internet is unavailable due to disaster, government shutdown or simply cost. It has an app store, an encrypted (matrix) chat server with a simple web UI, and maps (since you probably didn't download google maps for you area before the Internet went out). We localize the boxes (mostly for central and south america) and have sent a few dozen around the world to communities with various use cases.

griffey 3y ago
I haven't done so yet, but I'll throw a link to ButterBox up on the LibraryBox site and suggest people take a look.

kwhitefoot 3y ago

I'm sure I have had routers that you could plug a USB drive into and browse the contents from any device connected to the Wi-Fi. And couldn't you do this with pretty much any random Wi-Fi capable laptop?