9 ms·

Compared to the UK where a standard-class rail season ticket for me to get to London (including underground), at £8,272 p/y.. but for that, I also have the luxu

by Daviey 3y ago

Compared to the UK where a standard-class rail season ticket for me to get to London (including underground), at £8,272 p/y.. but for that, I also have the luxury of either standing in an overcrowded carriage, or if I am super lucky I get to sit in a seat that smells of urine.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ben_w 3y ago
If you're just commuting like a normal person, there's also the Deutschlandticket, all* public transport for €49/month. * including ferries, busses, underground, but also has exceptions that don't matter for normal commuting such as "no intercity express" and "a seat isn't guaranteed".
- k1ck4ss 3y ago
  // all* public transport for €49/month. not true. ICE trains for example (see pic in article) are not part of the deal.
  - elaus 3y ago
    That is _literally_ the exception listed in the asterisk text ("all*") one line below the text you quoted ("intercity express" is abbreviated ICE).
- sva_ 3y ago
  You need some thick skin spending so much time in regional trains. It has become so bad in crowded areas that I'm always super happy once it is over. Nevermind delays, trains being canceled, or standing in freezing temperatures at some random trainstop because the train broke down.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    ICEs have become super crowded too though (in the 2nd class at least), and IME the regional train connections are actually much more reliable than the intercity connections (where long delays are quite common).
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      The double-decker rolling stock that the Deutsche Bahn use are very comfortable, too. There's loads of space and luggage racks in ample supply. On the upper deck you can enjoy the view better than on an ICE train. If you like looking out of the window there's no better train to be on!
- Prcmaker 3y ago
  Damn, 49euro/month seems downright reasonable. I used to pay more, a decade ago, for a student ticket in Australia.
pera 3y ago
I never understood why trains are so expensive in England: when I lived in Bristol I liked to spend time in Bath, it's just a ~10 minutes ride but it costed 10 pounds each way if I remember correctly... but at least you could bring your bike for free :p
- philipwhiuk 3y ago
  Simple, they're run by European train operators to subsidise their national networks.
  - williamdclt 3y ago
    > to subsidise their national networks Do you have a source? That's an extraordinary claim, the sort of thing I'd expect to find in Nigel Farage's bag of lies
    - domh 3y ago
      Here's one article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2019/08/15/almost-all-british-train-lines-are-now-owned-by-other-eu-countries/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2019/08/15/almost-a... I believe it's a little out of date now, as some of the lines have been renationalised due to failures of the private sector.
    - drcongo 3y ago
      It's not an EU-bash, it's true. We sold off the railways to private companies, most of which are actually the nationalised rail operators of other countries.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      "to subsidise their national networks" is a framing, but "for profit" is the simple truth of train operators in a privatized system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_UK_Trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_UK_Trains : subsidiary of DB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2c : subsidiary of Trenitalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti_West_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti_West_Coast : part owned by Trenitalia And so on. (Don't forget that the real profit ends up with the "train landlords", the ROSCOs: https://www.leasinglife.com/features/who-owns-the-trains-roscos-and-repatriated-profits/?cf-view https://www.leasinglife.com/features/who-owns-the-trains-ros... ; all of them are parented in Luxembourg for tax reasons)
waihtis 3y ago
Sounds expensive, are you coming from afar? A few years ago a monthly ticket within the London zones 1-6 (or perhaps it was 1-4) was only 150 pounds per month.
- Daviey 3y ago
  Certainly outside London - shortest journey time is 1h9m, 3rd stop.
  - waihtis 3y ago
    still, its an insane price hike
netsharc 3y ago
Germany has rail "discount cards", including for 100%, first class for 7714 euro/year(1) Tbh I can't imagine it to be relaxing being cooped in your seat the whole day, with people around you. (1) https://int.bahn.de/en/bahnbusiness/offers/businesscards/bahncard100-1-class-gk https://int.bahn.de/en/bahnbusiness/offers/businesscards/bah...
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  In the 1st class it's probably fine because it's mostly empty. 2nd class on the other hand... (and I bet that's the reason he's paying for 1st class ticket, he could save 3200 Euros if he bought a Bahncard 100 2nd class instead: https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100-2-klasse https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100-2-klasse).
blibble 3y ago
you could do this with 14 day 1st class all line rovers for a cool £36k/year
martinald 3y ago
After spending a lot of time in Europe, the grass definitely isn't greener. Trains in France are not vastly cheaper than the UK, but the service pattern is awful outside the very main routes. Often huge gaps in service for parts of the day and non-clockface timetabling. Seems to be very poor utilisation of rolling stock, with a lot of the stations having trains sitting for hours doing nothing (which should really be operated more intensely to give a better service pattern). DB has horrendous reliability problems, basically the entire network gets something similar to TPE on time performance (the worst performing TOC in the UK). ICE/IC trains are also not particularly cheap for on the day travel. Spain's high speed lines are excellent and very cheap. But outside that the network is incredibly limited and slow, so much so that buses will almost always beat the train in journey time. Netherlands is good, affordable, frequent services and reliable. I think NL is the only country I've been to where the system is noticeably better than the UK across a lot of dimensions.
- unkeen 3y ago
  The UK is part of Europe, too.
  - pxeger1 3y ago
    In the UK the word “Europe” is commonly understood in certain connected to mean continental Europe or the EU, in contrast to the UK.
  - jon-wood 3y ago
    It's really not. There was a little falling out that occurred in 2016, you might have heard of it.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      EU and Europe are not the same thing (one is an organization, the other is a continent).
      - jamiek88 3y ago
kragen 3y ago
does 'season' mean '3 months' or 'year' i'm not from the uk
- Daviey 3y ago
  Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was a year.
  - kragen 3y ago
    thank you!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
alexfoo 3y ago
The UK has a concept of a BritRail pass for people from outside the UK. It's currently £568 for a month long pass. That would be £6816 for a year, although (again) "You can use a BritRail Pass if you’re not a UK citizen and have not lived in the UK for the last six months or more.". I guess you'd have to go home before the end of the 6th consecutive month of using the passes otherwise you'd disqualify yourself. https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/rail-passes/britrail-pass https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/rail-passes/britrail-pas... The All-Line-Rover would be the version for anyone who does live in the UK: http://www.railrover.org/pages/all-line.html http://www.railrover.org/pages/all-line.html and it is much more expensive.

by Daviey 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ben_w 3y ago

If you're just commuting like a normal person, there's also the Deutschlandticket, all* public transport for €49/month. * including ferries, busses, underground, but also has exceptions that don't matter for normal commuting such as "no intercity express" and "a seat isn't guaranteed".

k1ck4ss 3y ago
// all* public transport for €49/month. not true. ICE trains for example (see pic in article) are not part of the deal.
- elaus 3y ago
  That is _literally_ the exception listed in the asterisk text ("all*") one line below the text you quoted ("intercity express" is abbreviated ICE).
sva_ 3y ago
You need some thick skin spending so much time in regional trains. It has become so bad in crowded areas that I'm always super happy once it is over. Nevermind delays, trains being canceled, or standing in freezing temperatures at some random trainstop because the train broke down.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  ICEs have become super crowded too though (in the 2nd class at least), and IME the regional train connections are actually much more reliable than the intercity connections (where long delays are quite common).
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    The double-decker rolling stock that the Deutsche Bahn use are very comfortable, too. There's loads of space and luggage racks in ample supply. On the upper deck you can enjoy the view better than on an ICE train. If you like looking out of the window there's no better train to be on!
Prcmaker 3y ago
Damn, 49euro/month seems downright reasonable. I used to pay more, a decade ago, for a student ticket in Australia.

pera 3y ago

I never understood why trains are so expensive in England: when I lived in Bristol I liked to spend time in Bath, it's just a ~10 minutes ride but it costed 10 pounds each way if I remember correctly... but at least you could bring your bike for free :p

philipwhiuk 3y ago
Simple, they're run by European train operators to subsidise their national networks.
- williamdclt 3y ago
  > to subsidise their national networks Do you have a source? That's an extraordinary claim, the sort of thing I'd expect to find in Nigel Farage's bag of lies
  - domh 3y ago
    Here's one article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2019/08/15/almost-all-british-train-lines-are-now-owned-by-other-eu-countries/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2019/08/15/almost-a... I believe it's a little out of date now, as some of the lines have been renationalised due to failures of the private sector.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    It's not an EU-bash, it's true. We sold off the railways to private companies, most of which are actually the nationalised rail operators of other countries.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    "to subsidise their national networks" is a framing, but "for profit" is the simple truth of train operators in a privatized system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_UK_Trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva_UK_Trains : subsidiary of DB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2c : subsidiary of Trenitalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti_West_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti_West_Coast : part owned by Trenitalia And so on. (Don't forget that the real profit ends up with the "train landlords", the ROSCOs: https://www.leasinglife.com/features/who-owns-the-trains-roscos-and-repatriated-profits/?cf-view https://www.leasinglife.com/features/who-owns-the-trains-ros... ; all of them are parented in Luxembourg for tax reasons)

waihtis 3y ago

Sounds expensive, are you coming from afar? A few years ago a monthly ticket within the London zones 1-6 (or perhaps it was 1-4) was only 150 pounds per month.

Daviey 3y ago
Certainly outside London - shortest journey time is 1h9m, 3rd stop.
- waihtis 3y ago
  still, its an insane price hike

netsharc 3y ago

Germany has rail "discount cards", including for 100%, first class for 7714 euro/year(1) Tbh I can't imagine it to be relaxing being cooped in your seat the whole day, with people around you. (1) https://int.bahn.de/en/bahnbusiness/offers/businesscards/bahncard100-1-class-gk https://int.bahn.de/en/bahnbusiness/offers/businesscards/bah...

flohofwoe 3y ago
In the 1st class it's probably fine because it's mostly empty. 2nd class on the other hand... (and I bet that's the reason he's paying for 1st class ticket, he could save 3200 Euros if he bought a Bahncard 100 2nd class instead: https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100-2-klasse https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100-2-klasse).

blibble 3y ago

you could do this with 14 day 1st class all line rovers for a cool £36k/year

martinald 3y ago

After spending a lot of time in Europe, the grass definitely isn't greener. Trains in France are not vastly cheaper than the UK, but the service pattern is awful outside the very main routes. Often huge gaps in service for parts of the day and non-clockface timetabling. Seems to be very poor utilisation of rolling stock, with a lot of the stations having trains sitting for hours doing nothing (which should really be operated more intensely to give a better service pattern). DB has horrendous reliability problems, basically the entire network gets something similar to TPE on time performance (the worst performing TOC in the UK). ICE/IC trains are also not particularly cheap for on the day travel. Spain's high speed lines are excellent and very cheap. But outside that the network is incredibly limited and slow, so much so that buses will almost always beat the train in journey time. Netherlands is good, affordable, frequent services and reliable. I think NL is the only country I've been to where the system is noticeably better than the UK across a lot of dimensions.

unkeen 3y ago
The UK is part of Europe, too.
- pxeger1 3y ago
  In the UK the word “Europe” is commonly understood in certain connected to mean continental Europe or the EU, in contrast to the UK.
- jon-wood 3y ago
  It's really not. There was a little falling out that occurred in 2016, you might have heard of it.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    EU and Europe are not the same thing (one is an organization, the other is a continent).
    - jamiek88 3y ago

kragen 3y ago

does 'season' mean '3 months' or 'year' i'm not from the uk

Daviey 3y ago
Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was a year.
- kragen 3y ago
  thank you!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

alexfoo 3y ago

The UK has a concept of a BritRail pass for people from outside the UK. It's currently £568 for a month long pass. That would be £6816 for a year, although (again) "You can use a BritRail Pass if you’re not a UK citizen and have not lived in the UK for the last six months or more.". I guess you'd have to go home before the end of the 6th consecutive month of using the passes otherwise you'd disqualify yourself. https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/rail-passes/britrail-pass https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/rail-passes/britrail-pas... The All-Line-Rover would be the version for anyone who does live in the UK: http://www.railrover.org/pages/all-line.html http://www.railrover.org/pages/all-line.html and it is much more expensive.