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Does this argument really still stand nowadays, with all the virtual DOM and whatnot that those frameworks bring OOB?

by theK 3y ago

trashburger 3y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted, it's a valid question (the downvote isn't an "I disagree" button). I believe the answer the Puter author came up with is that the VDOM takes away too much of the control from the author. They do make life easier but they have an abstraction cost (mental overhead) and in case of some of them performance issues (execution overhead).
- zarathustreal 3y ago
  > the downvote isn’t an “I disagree” button Take it from a guy that regularly posts unpopular truths: people vote based on the way they feel after reading. It has almost nothing to do with the content. Edit: for example, try posting a personal opinion about a controversial topic and you’ll still have people downvoting to disagree as if it’s possible to tell someone that they are in fact wrong about a statement of what their opinion on a topic is. It’s a bit sad if you think about what voting like that means, as content is often amplified or suppressed based on votes. Echo chambers seem inevitable
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    Hello! Would you like to post any opinion at all, or in any possible way mention anything about, the humanitarian situation in Gaza?
    - sam_goody 3y ago
      There is a flag button as well as the downvote. Throwing in something about Gaza here would be off topic, political, and against HN guidelines.
    - zarathustreal 3y ago
      I try to minimize posting (edit: and having) opinions most of the time, they don’t tend to generate interesting discussion (edit: and are highly limited by perspective). Kinda hard to come to a conclusion when the assertions all boil down to “this is my experience”
- sam_goody 3y ago
  > the downvote isn't an "I disagree" button Would that it were so. HN has a down/up pair, which is definitely used to express agreement and disagreement. IMO, HN would gain a lot by allowing for more flexibility in down votes - eg. being like SO that a downvote is only a quarter of a vote.
lopis 3y ago
I thought we're moving away from virtual DOM?
- trashburger 3y ago
  Who's "we"? React is still by far the most popular framework. I personally like Solid better but I'm just one person vs. many who actively write React code.
  - monsieurbanana 3y ago
    With the new React 19 that changes everything once again™, I wouldn't be surprised if by React 20 or 21 they completely move away from the vdom. Getting a compiler step seems like a first step towards that.
isoprophlex 3y ago
I'm not really writing that to stir up js framework shit, mostly just commenting on the insane dedication to ideals needed to go "fuck it i'll just use jQuery" on a project of this scope. At least, from my brainlet dev perspective, a move like this is 100% boss level.
- theK 3y ago
  Yeah, I got that. The reason I asked is that to me it is a genuine question. I would have thought that with all the effort that is going into component frameworks (and into js runtimes too), the performance difference would be small either way. As it has happened with compilers in a sense.
rakoo 3y ago
Virtual DOM has always been about ease of programming, never about performance. Since this model has existed, all the work has been made to gain more performance but still not fast enough compared to direct DOM access.

Does this argument really still stand nowadays, with all the virtual DOM and whatnot that those frameworks bring OOB?

by theK 3y ago

Does this argument really still stand nowadays, with all the virtual DOM and whatnot that those frameworks bring OOB?

Not sure why you're downvoted, it's a valid question (the downvote isn't an "I disagree" button). I believe the answer the Puter author came up with is that the VDOM takes away too much of the control from the author. They do make life easier but they have an abstraction cost (mental overhead) and in case of some of them performance issues (execution overhead).

zarathustreal 3y ago
> the downvote isn’t an “I disagree” button Take it from a guy that regularly posts unpopular truths: people vote based on the way they feel after reading. It has almost nothing to do with the content. Edit: for example, try posting a personal opinion about a controversial topic and you’ll still have people downvoting to disagree as if it’s possible to tell someone that they are in fact wrong about a statement of what their opinion on a topic is. It’s a bit sad if you think about what voting like that means, as content is often amplified or suppressed based on votes. Echo chambers seem inevitable
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  Hello! Would you like to post any opinion at all, or in any possible way mention anything about, the humanitarian situation in Gaza?
  - sam_goody 3y ago
    There is a flag button as well as the downvote. Throwing in something about Gaza here would be off topic, political, and against HN guidelines.
  - zarathustreal 3y ago
    I try to minimize posting (edit: and having) opinions most of the time, they don’t tend to generate interesting discussion (edit: and are highly limited by perspective). Kinda hard to come to a conclusion when the assertions all boil down to “this is my experience”
sam_goody 3y ago
> the downvote isn't an "I disagree" button Would that it were so. HN has a down/up pair, which is definitely used to express agreement and disagreement. IMO, HN would gain a lot by allowing for more flexibility in down votes - eg. being like SO that a downvote is only a quarter of a vote.

lopis 3y ago

I thought we're moving away from virtual DOM?

trashburger 3y ago
Who's "we"? React is still by far the most popular framework. I personally like Solid better but I'm just one person vs. many who actively write React code.
- monsieurbanana 3y ago
  With the new React 19 that changes everything once again™, I wouldn't be surprised if by React 20 or 21 they completely move away from the vdom. Getting a compiler step seems like a first step towards that.

isoprophlex 3y ago

I'm not really writing that to stir up js framework shit, mostly just commenting on the insane dedication to ideals needed to go "fuck it i'll just use jQuery" on a project of this scope. At least, from my brainlet dev perspective, a move like this is 100% boss level.

theK 3y ago
Yeah, I got that. The reason I asked is that to me it is a genuine question. I would have thought that with all the effort that is going into component frameworks (and into js runtimes too), the performance difference would be small either way. As it has happened with compilers in a sense.

rakoo 3y ago

Virtual DOM has always been about ease of programming, never about performance. Since this model has existed, all the work has been made to gain more performance but still not fast enough compared to direct DOM access.