5 ms·

It's probably obvious to most, but I wish headlines like these would clarify _desktop_ market share. Linux has had majority market share in the server space for

by pilaf 3y ago

It's probably obvious to most, but I wish headlines like these would clarify _desktop_ market share. Linux has had majority market share in the server space for decades now.

charcircuit 3y ago
and mobile
- Ygg2 3y ago
  Android's OS isn't Linux. In same way my OS isn't Java. It runs Java, but that doesn't make Java an OS.
  - croes 3y ago
    Android is based on a modified Linux kernel
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      There is not much of a point to pointing that out considering popular server Linux OSs like Debian and RHEL also use a modified Linux kernel
      - croes 3y ago
        But you would count Debian and RHEL as a Linux, so is Android.
        vetinari 3y ago
        Debian and RHEL have classic GNU userland (thus, GNU/Linux), Android does not. With normal Linux, it has only common kernel (even though heavily modified) and maybe musl (as an alternative libc).
    - Ygg2 3y ago
      It's also based on modified JVM. It still doesn't make Dalvik my operating system. Android OS can best be described as a ball of mud that evolved soup of (semi?-)proprietary firmware.
      - vetinari 3y ago
        It was never JVM. Converting to dex happens on developer side, and that severs anything JVM-like.
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Nitpick that doesn't affect my argument. Argument is based on access to underlying hardware not it being JVM. Since edit window has passed: Just because it's based on JVM compatible VM, doesn't make ART/Dalvik my Operating system either.
        croes 3y ago
        Because neither JVM nor Dalvik are OS. Android is a kind of Linux just like Dalvik is a kind of JVM.
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Ok, but what makes OS an operating system? Versus a virtualization mechanism or an app?
        croes 3y ago
        In the case of JVM threading, file handling, memory management etc. is delegated down to the host real operating system.
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Same happens for Linux, power, memory and bunch of other stuff is delegated to the SoC firmware.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    By that standard no OS is Linux. Linux when used in reference to an operating system typically refers to the family of operating systems that use the Linux kernel.
    - Ygg2 3y ago
      I'm glad you can read my mind and decide what I'm using for OS definition. But no, Debian Linux running on a VM is not its OS, but Mint Linux running on my hardware is the OS. An OS is a body of software that: - multiplexes machine hardware resources - abstracts the hardware platform - protects software principals from each other Does Debian Linux in a VM multiplexes the hardware resources? Not really. Does a VM running on Mint Linux? Again not really. They are multiplexing the resources given to them, but not actual hardware resources.
      - charcircuit 3y ago
        Android runs Linux on the hardware of the device. Android 13 did add the ability to run Linux in a VM, but the host OS still is running Linux without virtualization
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Linux on Android doesn't multiplex or protect software principals from each other. It did for a brief time, but that led to massive vulnerablilities. Because Linux view of hardware (nice symmetric system with homogeneous cores running single OS with shared memory address space) was different from what was the actual state. For that reason hardware was abstracted away from Linux and it's only used to run Linux programs. It's not containerized. It's isolated to an enclave where damage it can do is minimal. Android OS is essentially a ball of propietary firmware mud. With Linux programs and Dalvik JVM. For more: https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo
        charcircuit 3y ago
        >Linux on Android doesn't multiplex or protect software principals from each other. What? Linux is the only part of the system that directly talks to the hardware and multiplexes it between other applications on top. It enforces security between different apps on the system from interfering with each other. >Because Linux view of hardware (nice symmetric system with homogeneous cores running single OS with shared memory address space) was different from what was the actual state. Linux does not assume homogeneous cores. >For that reason hardware was abstracted away from Linux It's not. Drivers for interfacing with the hardware have to be built into Linux / a Linux kernel module. >and it's only used to run Linux programs. All running processes on the system are running on Linux. >It's not containerized. It uses the Linux kernel to enforce security boundaries which is what containers do. >Android OS is essentially a ball of propietary firmware mud. With Linux programs and Dalvik JVM. You can run Android without any proprietary firmware. Dalvik is not a JVM.

by pilaf 3y ago

It's probably obvious to most, but I wish headlines like these would clarify _desktop_ market share. Linux has had majority market share in the server space for decades now.

charcircuit 3y ago

and mobile

Ygg2 3y ago
Android's OS isn't Linux. In same way my OS isn't Java. It runs Java, but that doesn't make Java an OS.
- croes 3y ago
  Android is based on a modified Linux kernel
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    There is not much of a point to pointing that out considering popular server Linux OSs like Debian and RHEL also use a modified Linux kernel
    - croes 3y ago
      But you would count Debian and RHEL as a Linux, so is Android.
      - vetinari 3y ago
        Debian and RHEL have classic GNU userland (thus, GNU/Linux), Android does not. With normal Linux, it has only common kernel (even though heavily modified) and maybe musl (as an alternative libc).
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    It's also based on modified JVM. It still doesn't make Dalvik my operating system. Android OS can best be described as a ball of mud that evolved soup of (semi?-)proprietary firmware.
    - vetinari 3y ago
      It was never JVM. Converting to dex happens on developer side, and that severs anything JVM-like.
      - Ygg2 3y ago
        Nitpick that doesn't affect my argument. Argument is based on access to underlying hardware not it being JVM. Since edit window has passed: Just because it's based on JVM compatible VM, doesn't make ART/Dalvik my Operating system either.
        croes 3y ago
        Because neither JVM nor Dalvik are OS. Android is a kind of Linux just like Dalvik is a kind of JVM.
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Ok, but what makes OS an operating system? Versus a virtualization mechanism or an app?
        croes 3y ago
        In the case of JVM threading, file handling, memory management etc. is delegated down to the host real operating system.
        Ygg2 3y ago
        Same happens for Linux, power, memory and bunch of other stuff is delegated to the SoC firmware.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  By that standard no OS is Linux. Linux when used in reference to an operating system typically refers to the family of operating systems that use the Linux kernel.
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    I'm glad you can read my mind and decide what I'm using for OS definition. But no, Debian Linux running on a VM is not its OS, but Mint Linux running on my hardware is the OS. An OS is a body of software that: - multiplexes machine hardware resources - abstracts the hardware platform - protects software principals from each other Does Debian Linux in a VM multiplexes the hardware resources? Not really. Does a VM running on Mint Linux? Again not really. They are multiplexing the resources given to them, but not actual hardware resources.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      Android runs Linux on the hardware of the device. Android 13 did add the ability to run Linux in a VM, but the host OS still is running Linux without virtualization
      - Ygg2 3y ago
        Linux on Android doesn't multiplex or protect software principals from each other. It did for a brief time, but that led to massive vulnerablilities. Because Linux view of hardware (nice symmetric system with homogeneous cores running single OS with shared memory address space) was different from what was the actual state. For that reason hardware was abstracted away from Linux and it's only used to run Linux programs. It's not containerized. It's isolated to an enclave where damage it can do is minimal. Android OS is essentially a ball of propietary firmware mud. With Linux programs and Dalvik JVM. For more: https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo
        charcircuit 3y ago
        >Linux on Android doesn't multiplex or protect software principals from each other. What? Linux is the only part of the system that directly talks to the hardware and multiplexes it between other applications on top. It enforces security between different apps on the system from interfering with each other. >Because Linux view of hardware (nice symmetric system with homogeneous cores running single OS with shared memory address space) was different from what was the actual state. Linux does not assume homogeneous cores. >For that reason hardware was abstracted away from Linux It's not. Drivers for interfacing with the hardware have to be built into Linux / a Linux kernel module. >and it's only used to run Linux programs. All running processes on the system are running on Linux. >It's not containerized. It uses the Linux kernel to enforce security boundaries which is what containers do. >Android OS is essentially a ball of propietary firmware mud. With Linux programs and Dalvik JVM. You can run Android without any proprietary firmware. Dalvik is not a JVM.