4 ms·

Pardon my ignorance... Why does the author call this website illegal? I'm not sure what laws they are violating.

by Shamiq 18y ago

potatolicious 18y ago
Not sure, but I'm pretty sure these guys are not licensed by any state gaming boards to operate as a legal gambling establishment. So I guess the author thinks this qualifies as gambling (and it probably does) and therefore these guys are in violation of said laws. Remember, when you're a legal gaming establishment there is a mountain of red tape and paperwork to stay legal... and this company is probably engaged in enough shenanigans that it would be considered a Bad Thing.
imgabe 18y ago
He doesn't say that it is illegal, only that it's so shady that it's likely someone will make a law against it. It could fall under gambling laws, since you're basically buying chances to win the opportunity to buy something at a low price.
- patio11 18y ago
  Oh, I don't think they'll need a new law in most jurisdictions as soon as they find out about the "Auctions for money". "Wait, so let me get this straight, people routinely 'buy' $100 for $20 on your service, and you profit $300 from the transaction from selling the 'bidding rights' to 'non-winning bidders'?" "Yes." "Oh, thanks. What determines who wins?" "Final bid price." "But paying $20 for $100, why, anybody should offer to pay $21.15 right?" "Yep, you have to pick when to make your bid though, so you are not outbid." "That sounds totally random, like a lottery." "No, it takes some skill." "Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Now, in your copy of the state code, look up 'games of skill' which offer a monetary prize."
  - byrneseyeview 18y ago
    "Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Now, in your copy of the state code, look up 'games of skill' which offer a monetary prize." At which point they say "Don't be ridiculous. Every thrift store is a 'game of skill' with a 'monetary prize' by your standard. Have fun shutting down Aunt Ruth's House of Lamps and Doilies, pal."
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states. How you define a game of skill vs. a game of chance varies, but with no random element here, I doubt this would be considered gambling in any. There are 6 where they may run into some sweepstakes laws though, I'm not sure. There are states where it is actually illegal to have a contest that is free to enter but awards a prize.
    - patio11 18y ago
      >> Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states >> That's just false. First law I checked (for my home state): "A person commits [the offense of] gambling when he : 1) Plays a game of chance or skill for money or other thing of value, unless excepted in subsection (b) of this Section"
      - mattmaroon 18y ago
        Which state and what's in subsection b?
      - mattmaroon 18y ago
        Hmm, seems I was wrong, organized games of skill for money (i.e. chess tournaments) are legal only by permit in some states. Yet WorldWinner.com operates in some of those. See, that's why you ask a lawyer. And not me.
noonespecial 18y ago
It will likely be called a raffle because buying the "tickets" costs money and you will very likely get nothing for it. In almost all states in the USA, raffles are illegal as part of the private lottery statutes. In practice, enforcement agents usually look the other way for small non-profit raffles like the kind held in church basements for pies and such. They are extremely unlikely to look the other way in this case!
- stcredzero 18y ago
  If they reduce the charge per-bid enough, then it does become an auction site. (And if it's large enough by that point, they'll still be raking it in.) They could also invite others with goods to sell and share the per-bid fee. If both of those things happen in a timely fashion, then it will be difficult for the authorities to argue that it's not an auction site.
  - potatolicious 18y ago
    A lottery ticket for $0.01 is still a for-profit lottery, which comes under a truckload of independent oversight (for good reason).
    - stcredzero 18y ago
      If they are not charging for the bid (chance to win) but for the bandwidth when submitting a bid from the web page, then they get around this. They can demonstrate that by having another channel for bids, like email messages formatted Majordomo command-style. Make this easily accessible, and it will be hard to argue that they are not an auction site. However, it can still be arcane (and slow) enough that the majority of the public still won't use it. Again, no one's gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  If they were smart they'd be selling "memberships".
- 18y ago
serhei 18y ago
The expression "profitable until deemed illegal" is used when what the business is doing is so obviously despicable and evil that if it continues the government will probably pass a law against it. (This is basically an offshore gambling site we're talking about, though, no more and no less. Therefore, I'm not sure how apt the expression is to what's actually going to happen.) Or, to put it another way, it's so fiendish that no one though to ban it before.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Legally I suspect it's quite distinctly not a gambling site. I would guess this to be legal in at least 44 states here, and I think it's fine in the other 6 too, though their contest laws are fairly convoluted.

Pardon my ignorance... Why does the author call this website illegal? I'm not sure what laws they are violating.

by Shamiq 18y ago

Pardon my ignorance... Why does the author call this website illegal? I'm not sure what laws they are violating.

Not sure, but I'm pretty sure these guys are not licensed by any state gaming boards to operate as a legal gambling establishment. So I guess the author thinks this qualifies as gambling (and it probably does) and therefore these guys are in violation of said laws. Remember, when you're a legal gaming establishment there is a mountain of red tape and paperwork to stay legal... and this company is probably engaged in enough shenanigans that it would be considered a Bad Thing.

imgabe 18y ago

He doesn't say that it is illegal, only that it's so shady that it's likely someone will make a law against it. It could fall under gambling laws, since you're basically buying chances to win the opportunity to buy something at a low price.

patio11 18y ago
Oh, I don't think they'll need a new law in most jurisdictions as soon as they find out about the "Auctions for money". "Wait, so let me get this straight, people routinely 'buy' $100 for $20 on your service, and you profit $300 from the transaction from selling the 'bidding rights' to 'non-winning bidders'?" "Yes." "Oh, thanks. What determines who wins?" "Final bid price." "But paying $20 for $100, why, anybody should offer to pay $21.15 right?" "Yep, you have to pick when to make your bid though, so you are not outbid." "That sounds totally random, like a lottery." "No, it takes some skill." "Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Now, in your copy of the state code, look up 'games of skill' which offer a monetary prize."
- byrneseyeview 18y ago
  "Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Now, in your copy of the state code, look up 'games of skill' which offer a monetary prize." At which point they say "Don't be ridiculous. Every thrift store is a 'game of skill' with a 'monetary prize' by your standard. Have fun shutting down Aunt Ruth's House of Lamps and Doilies, pal."
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states. How you define a game of skill vs. a game of chance varies, but with no random element here, I doubt this would be considered gambling in any. There are 6 where they may run into some sweepstakes laws though, I'm not sure. There are states where it is actually illegal to have a contest that is free to enter but awards a prize.
  - patio11 18y ago
    >> Games of skill with monetary prizes are legal in all states >> That's just false. First law I checked (for my home state): "A person commits [the offense of] gambling when he : 1) Plays a game of chance or skill for money or other thing of value, unless excepted in subsection (b) of this Section"
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      Which state and what's in subsection b?
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      Hmm, seems I was wrong, organized games of skill for money (i.e. chess tournaments) are legal only by permit in some states. Yet WorldWinner.com operates in some of those. See, that's why you ask a lawyer. And not me.

noonespecial 18y ago

It will likely be called a raffle because buying the "tickets" costs money and you will very likely get nothing for it. In almost all states in the USA, raffles are illegal as part of the private lottery statutes. In practice, enforcement agents usually look the other way for small non-profit raffles like the kind held in church basements for pies and such. They are extremely unlikely to look the other way in this case!

stcredzero 18y ago
If they reduce the charge per-bid enough, then it does become an auction site. (And if it's large enough by that point, they'll still be raking it in.) They could also invite others with goods to sell and share the per-bid fee. If both of those things happen in a timely fashion, then it will be difficult for the authorities to argue that it's not an auction site.
- potatolicious 18y ago
  A lottery ticket for $0.01 is still a for-profit lottery, which comes under a truckload of independent oversight (for good reason).
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    If they are not charging for the bid (chance to win) but for the bandwidth when submitting a bid from the web page, then they get around this. They can demonstrate that by having another channel for bids, like email messages formatted Majordomo command-style. Make this easily accessible, and it will be hard to argue that they are not an auction site. However, it can still be arcane (and slow) enough that the majority of the public still won't use it. Again, no one's gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
run4yourlives 18y ago
If they were smart they'd be selling "memberships".
18y ago

serhei 18y ago

The expression "profitable until deemed illegal" is used when what the business is doing is so obviously despicable and evil that if it continues the government will probably pass a law against it. (This is basically an offshore gambling site we're talking about, though, no more and no less. Therefore, I'm not sure how apt the expression is to what's actually going to happen.) Or, to put it another way, it's so fiendish that no one though to ban it before.

mattmaroon 18y ago
Legally I suspect it's quite distinctly not a gambling site. I would guess this to be legal in at least 44 states here, and I think it's fine in the other 6 too, though their contest laws are fairly convoluted.