4 ms·

In sounds nice in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work out. The example linked is a good one, a popover, the underlying DOM disappears, but the "state" behi

by omeid2 3y ago

In sounds nice in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work out. The example linked is a good one, a popover, the underlying DOM disappears, but the "state" behind it remains at least a bit longer.

QuadrupleA 3y ago
I've practiced for decades and it works out fine. It's good to explore outside the React cargo cult from time to time.
- omeid2 3y ago
  Can you share some complex application you have worked on that doesn't use a framework or end-up inventing one internally like VSCode for example? I did web not just before React but before jQuery and MooTools. So it is funny you ask I should explore outside "React cargo cult".
  - lenkite 3y ago
    Out of curiosity, which is the internal framework used by VSCode ? Would like to take a look at that. According to Erich Gamma, there is no use of a UI framework just a conventional model-View-Presenter with JS/TS constructed HTMLElement components.
    - omeid2 3y ago
      There is no such thing as "conventional" MVP, every implementation is slightly different. It is not an official framework per se, but it is a framework nonetheless, except without comprehensive documentation and developer availability or much commercial value in investing your time to learn it. The main point is that if you're arguing against React or any framework "because abstraction bad", you will end up with them anyways, enjoy: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/lifecycle.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs... https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/event.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs... https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/actions.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs...
      - lenkite 3y ago
        Well, we will need to agree to disagree. I see some utility libraries in `base/common` for disposables management, eventing and actions that you are terming a "framework". I don't even know how I would use this as an independent framework outside vscode. Even if I could, the rendering and organization logic would be mine not delegated to fundamentally unique framework paradigms like React/Vue/Angular. The creators of vscode also explicitly state they don't use UI frameworks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnKzJRr-rd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnKzJRr-rd0 Unless we are calling all libraries and packages as frameworks...
        omeid2 3y ago
        > I see some utility libraries in `base/common` for disposables management, eventing and actions that you are terming a "framework". It is because you didn't look deep enough, VSCode for all intent and purposes has a "framework" that it is built on top of. What is a frameworks anyways? "Frameworks model a specific domain or an important aspect thereof. They represent the domain as an abstract design, consisting of abstract classes (or interfaces). The abstract design is more than a set of classes, because it defines how instances of the classes are allowed to collaborate with each other at runtime. Effectively, it acts as a skeleton, or a scaffolding, that determines how framework objects relate to each other." If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably also Reacts like a duck. > the rendering and organization logic would be mine. This is cute and nice for a weekend project. But if you want to build commercially viable products or even a GA open-source software, "Mine" is of no value. Good documentation, extensive testing, developer availability, on the other hand are far more important.

by omeid2 3y ago

In sounds nice in theory, but in practice, it doesn't work out. The example linked is a good one, a popover, the underlying DOM disappears, but the "state" behind it remains at least a bit longer.

QuadrupleA 3y ago

I've practiced for decades and it works out fine. It's good to explore outside the React cargo cult from time to time.

omeid2 3y ago
Can you share some complex application you have worked on that doesn't use a framework or end-up inventing one internally like VSCode for example? I did web not just before React but before jQuery and MooTools. So it is funny you ask I should explore outside "React cargo cult".
- lenkite 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, which is the internal framework used by VSCode ? Would like to take a look at that. According to Erich Gamma, there is no use of a UI framework just a conventional model-View-Presenter with JS/TS constructed HTMLElement components.
  - omeid2 3y ago
    There is no such thing as "conventional" MVP, every implementation is slightly different. It is not an official framework per se, but it is a framework nonetheless, except without comprehensive documentation and developer availability or much commercial value in investing your time to learn it. The main point is that if you're arguing against React or any framework "because abstraction bad", you will end up with them anyways, enjoy: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/lifecycle.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs... https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/event.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs... https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs/base/common/actions.ts https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/blob/release/1.87/src/vs...
    - lenkite 3y ago
      Well, we will need to agree to disagree. I see some utility libraries in `base/common` for disposables management, eventing and actions that you are terming a "framework". I don't even know how I would use this as an independent framework outside vscode. Even if I could, the rendering and organization logic would be mine not delegated to fundamentally unique framework paradigms like React/Vue/Angular. The creators of vscode also explicitly state they don't use UI frameworks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnKzJRr-rd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnKzJRr-rd0 Unless we are calling all libraries and packages as frameworks...
      - omeid2 3y ago
        > I see some utility libraries in `base/common` for disposables management, eventing and actions that you are terming a "framework". It is because you didn't look deep enough, VSCode for all intent and purposes has a "framework" that it is built on top of. What is a frameworks anyways? "Frameworks model a specific domain or an important aspect thereof. They represent the domain as an abstract design, consisting of abstract classes (or interfaces). The abstract design is more than a set of classes, because it defines how instances of the classes are allowed to collaborate with each other at runtime. Effectively, it acts as a skeleton, or a scaffolding, that determines how framework objects relate to each other." If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably also Reacts like a duck. > the rendering and organization logic would be mine. This is cute and nice for a weekend project. But if you want to build commercially viable products or even a GA open-source software, "Mine" is of no value. Good documentation, extensive testing, developer availability, on the other hand are far more important.