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New hybrids can't beat the efficiency of old gas powered sedans, because they're too heavy. The arms race that is car sizes in the US is insane. I drive a 2021

by duped 3y ago

New hybrids can't beat the efficiency of old gas powered sedans, because they're too heavy. The arms race that is car sizes in the US is insane. I drive a 2021 Lexus hybrid that gets about 35 mpg (in practice, not what the EPA rating says). My buddy drives a 2001 Civic and gets about 42 mpg. I'm pretty sure that Civic is going to outlive both of us, while I doubt that the Lexus is going to last a decade. And for reasons, I'm in the market for a car but don't want to pay EV prices. The PHEVs and hybrids are pretty compelling in terms of price, but their fuel economy leaves something to be desired. They're just too heavy.

idontwantthis 3y ago
They are also so expensive. Niro hybrid: $27 k, phev: $34k With the hybrid getting 53mpg you would need to drive a crazy number of miles to make back the difference, but that crazy number of miles would all be in short trips so I don’t see how it could happen.
- duped 3y ago
  27k is reasonable for the price of a new car. Everything but the cheapest of vehicles is around there these days.
  - idontwantthis 3y ago
    I meant the PHEV is so expensive compared to the hybrid, which is the base model. After doing the math, I think it’s mainly there to drive people to buy the EV for only a few $k more.
duffyjp 3y ago
Your Lexus is presumably an SUV? A bone stock 2024 Prius gets 57 mpg and has almost 200HP. I'm in a 2013 Prius C that gets nearly 50. My previous car was a 2000 Lexus ES that got 17 mpg. I basically paid for the Prius' loan with gas savings. I'm also in the market as 10 years is about the max in Wisconsin before everything goes to hell, and I'll probably get another hybrid. My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here.
- harkinian 3y ago
  The hybrids use less gasoline for sure, when comparing apples to apples new car vs new car. Cost-effectiveness is more complicated. However, if you take all the compromises of a tiny late-80s/early-90s Honda Civic, it'll do 50-60 MPG.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  When I was living an working in San Francisco I drove a full sized passenger van that got 15mpg. Was okay since I was putting 4000 miles a year on it. Then my company moved. Running the numbers buying a used Prius was a small win based on gas savings. But then a trip to Marin and back in the van was probably $100 vs $40 for the Prius.
- duped 3y ago
  It's not an SUV.
- yumraj 3y ago
  > My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here. Prius Prime owner here in CA, and this is especially true here. It’s almost a wash between gas and EV here, unless you have solar. In PG&E areas EVs make zero sense for non-solar customers.
CobaltFire 3y ago
Your comment on the Lexus is… not in alignment with reality. I won’t argue the relative merits of hybrid and PHEV, but if it’s the ES (the only non-SUV hybrid they make) then the statement that it won’t last 9 years is something you would need to back up. Toyota Hybrids are pretty well known to be reliable, and the ES is a particularly well designed/constructed Camry/Avalon. For the record I drive a 2024 ES after test driving basically every PHEV out there and it’s so much more solid and well put together than everything else I drove… I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I also drove a 2001 Civic and just helped a friend replace their 2001 Civic with a 2024 Corolla Hybrid. Vastly better car, same size, and not a bad price. Comparing a full size luxury sedan with a tin can that won’t pass current safety standards isn’t exactly helping your argument.
- duped 3y ago
  It's a UX 250h which is classified as a compact crossover - but for all intents and purposes, it's a hatchback sedan. Looks like one, drives like one, sits on the same frame, is as big as a one, and has the cargo capacity of a hatchback to boot. I get 35 mpg in it. Great car, would highly recommend. I think if nothing in the world changed for the next ten years, it would hold up fine. But I forsee other issues that older sedans won't run into, especially with the inevitable number of repairs and availability of parts for the electronics. The point is that if you just look at total carbon emissions, modern EVs and hybrids aren't better than old ICE sedans. A big part of the reason is weight, due to safety and creature comforts. What I'm lamenting is that hybrids don't do that much better than ICEs from 20 years ago when it comes to fuel economy - except for some standouts like the Prius. Meanwhile, most manufacturers are just selling hybrid SUVs and crossovers, or EVs the size of a whale. Some of these cars they're selling have to be hybrids because of EPA mileage requirements, and they're going to struggle to get to where the EPA wants them (which is why Biden rolled back the pace of fuel economy standard changes just a few weeks ago - the manufacturers won't keep up).

by duped 3y ago

idontwantthis 3y ago

They are also so expensive. Niro hybrid: $27 k, phev: $34k With the hybrid getting 53mpg you would need to drive a crazy number of miles to make back the difference, but that crazy number of miles would all be in short trips so I don’t see how it could happen.

duped 3y ago
27k is reasonable for the price of a new car. Everything but the cheapest of vehicles is around there these days.
- idontwantthis 3y ago
  I meant the PHEV is so expensive compared to the hybrid, which is the base model. After doing the math, I think it’s mainly there to drive people to buy the EV for only a few $k more.

duffyjp 3y ago

Your Lexus is presumably an SUV? A bone stock 2024 Prius gets 57 mpg and has almost 200HP. I'm in a 2013 Prius C that gets nearly 50. My previous car was a 2000 Lexus ES that got 17 mpg. I basically paid for the Prius' loan with gas savings. I'm also in the market as 10 years is about the max in Wisconsin before everything goes to hell, and I'll probably get another hybrid. My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here.

harkinian 3y ago
The hybrids use less gasoline for sure, when comparing apples to apples new car vs new car. Cost-effectiveness is more complicated. However, if you take all the compromises of a tiny late-80s/early-90s Honda Civic, it'll do 50-60 MPG.
Gibbon1 3y ago
When I was living an working in San Francisco I drove a full sized passenger van that got 15mpg. Was okay since I was putting 4000 miles a year on it. Then my company moved. Running the numbers buying a used Prius was a small win based on gas savings. But then a trip to Marin and back in the van was probably $100 vs $40 for the Prius.
duped 3y ago
It's not an SUV.
yumraj 3y ago
> My wife had a PHEV for a while but we didn't save any money on fuel as electricity is expensive here. Prius Prime owner here in CA, and this is especially true here. It’s almost a wash between gas and EV here, unless you have solar. In PG&E areas EVs make zero sense for non-solar customers.

CobaltFire 3y ago

Your comment on the Lexus is… not in alignment with reality. I won’t argue the relative merits of hybrid and PHEV, but if it’s the ES (the only non-SUV hybrid they make) then the statement that it won’t last 9 years is something you would need to back up. Toyota Hybrids are pretty well known to be reliable, and the ES is a particularly well designed/constructed Camry/Avalon. For the record I drive a 2024 ES after test driving basically every PHEV out there and it’s so much more solid and well put together than everything else I drove… I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I also drove a 2001 Civic and just helped a friend replace their 2001 Civic with a 2024 Corolla Hybrid. Vastly better car, same size, and not a bad price. Comparing a full size luxury sedan with a tin can that won’t pass current safety standards isn’t exactly helping your argument.

duped 3y ago
It's a UX 250h which is classified as a compact crossover - but for all intents and purposes, it's a hatchback sedan. Looks like one, drives like one, sits on the same frame, is as big as a one, and has the cargo capacity of a hatchback to boot. I get 35 mpg in it. Great car, would highly recommend. I think if nothing in the world changed for the next ten years, it would hold up fine. But I forsee other issues that older sedans won't run into, especially with the inevitable number of repairs and availability of parts for the electronics. The point is that if you just look at total carbon emissions, modern EVs and hybrids aren't better than old ICE sedans. A big part of the reason is weight, due to safety and creature comforts. What I'm lamenting is that hybrids don't do that much better than ICEs from 20 years ago when it comes to fuel economy - except for some standouts like the Prius. Meanwhile, most manufacturers are just selling hybrid SUVs and crossovers, or EVs the size of a whale. Some of these cars they're selling have to be hybrids because of EPA mileage requirements, and they're going to struggle to get to where the EPA wants them (which is why Biden rolled back the pace of fuel economy standard changes just a few weeks ago - the manufacturers won't keep up).