5 ms·

> we asked the french equivalent of the 2nd circuit Minor note: not really the French equivalent of the 2nd circuit US (federal) courts are like: district, ap

by dmoy 3y ago

> we asked the french equivalent of the 2nd circuit Minor note: not really the French equivalent of the 2nd circuit US (federal) courts are like: district, appeals (e.g. 2nd circuit, 9th circuit, cafc, etc), supreme. The circuit courts are all on the same level, they don't hand cases between each other. French court has another layer in there? And moreover, it's not geographically separated, but rather by subject matter? (US has only one such court, the cafc). E.g. you can't remand from 2nd circuit down to an appeals court, because there is no appeals court underneath the 2nd circuit. But you also can't say that court is like the supreme court, because there is a constitutional court above it, which is the analogy to the US supreme court

pm3003 3y ago
Yeah, Cassation Court is a sort of sub-Supreme Court. It has the ability to break rulings (French casser, hence the name) if the law wasn't well done, or if the wrong law was applied to the case, or if some judicial norms (laws, basic rights, jurisprudence) were not balanced correctly in a ruling ; It does not rule on the facts of the case, only on the way it was judged. Rulings of the Cassation court are usually applicable as case law, which is much less common in continental legal systems than it is in Common Law legal systems. By the way, the French legal system has two main circuits ("orders") : the judiciary order (penal and civil) and the administrative law order, which handles disputes and trials between government entities (local, regional, or national), and between government entities and private entities (in most cases). The equivalent of the Cassation court in the administrative order is the Conseil d'Etat.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Seems cool I'm just psyched to learn it has multiple separate subject-matter segregated appeals courts. Always looked like a saner approach than geographically separating circuit courts. Get judges with more specialized expertise in various areas.
  - belorn 3y ago
    There are benefits but also drawback to such system. The benefit is as you say that judges have more specialized expertise, which also mean that other judges don't need to dive deep into expert areas outside of their own. The drawback however tend to be a much higher risk of regulative capture, especially in areas of patent and copyright. A general judge might have a easier time creating a balance decision than a judge who been previous been working as a expert lawyer for large companies for several decades. The above events illustrate this a bit by how they lost on first instance because the system assumed that cases are about commercial entities which has contractual obligation between them. It took the supreme-like court that is specialized on legal procedures, rather than a court specialized on contract, to see the issue in the correct context.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      Oh interesting, are French judges appointed based on their prior law practice expertise? In the US there is that problem somewhat, with the cafc. But probably <50%, it also has a lot of academics and government lawyers too.
creer 3y ago
And "circuit" in the US is about region, not hierarchy. California has a hierarchy of federal courts and as 9th circuit, they are allowed to rule differently from the hierarchies of federal courts in Texas (in the 5th circuit) or Colorado (in the 10th). They don't have to but they can. At some point, if the US Supreme Court steps in (which they don't have to), one reasoning gets picked (or yet another one cooked up) which then stands for all regions and the courts are then strongly dissuaded from screwing with it any further.

by dmoy 3y ago

pm3003 3y ago

Yeah, Cassation Court is a sort of sub-Supreme Court. It has the ability to break rulings (French casser, hence the name) if the law wasn't well done, or if the wrong law was applied to the case, or if some judicial norms (laws, basic rights, jurisprudence) were not balanced correctly in a ruling ; It does not rule on the facts of the case, only on the way it was judged. Rulings of the Cassation court are usually applicable as case law, which is much less common in continental legal systems than it is in Common Law legal systems. By the way, the French legal system has two main circuits ("orders") : the judiciary order (penal and civil) and the administrative law order, which handles disputes and trials between government entities (local, regional, or national), and between government entities and private entities (in most cases). The equivalent of the Cassation court in the administrative order is the Conseil d'Etat.

dmoy 3y ago
Seems cool I'm just psyched to learn it has multiple separate subject-matter segregated appeals courts. Always looked like a saner approach than geographically separating circuit courts. Get judges with more specialized expertise in various areas.
- belorn 3y ago
  There are benefits but also drawback to such system. The benefit is as you say that judges have more specialized expertise, which also mean that other judges don't need to dive deep into expert areas outside of their own. The drawback however tend to be a much higher risk of regulative capture, especially in areas of patent and copyright. A general judge might have a easier time creating a balance decision than a judge who been previous been working as a expert lawyer for large companies for several decades. The above events illustrate this a bit by how they lost on first instance because the system assumed that cases are about commercial entities which has contractual obligation between them. It took the supreme-like court that is specialized on legal procedures, rather than a court specialized on contract, to see the issue in the correct context.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    Oh interesting, are French judges appointed based on their prior law practice expertise? In the US there is that problem somewhat, with the cafc. But probably <50%, it also has a lot of academics and government lawyers too.

creer 3y ago

And "circuit" in the US is about region, not hierarchy. California has a hierarchy of federal courts and as 9th circuit, they are allowed to rule differently from the hierarchies of federal courts in Texas (in the 5th circuit) or Colorado (in the 10th). They don't have to but they can. At some point, if the US Supreme Court steps in (which they don't have to), one reasoning gets picked (or yet another one cooked up) which then stands for all regions and the courts are then strongly dissuaded from screwing with it any further.