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Did you have a lawyer to represent you? That's their job... to make sure that the contract you're signing is OK. Actually reading a contract without knowledge o

by spolsky 14y ago

Did you have a lawyer to represent you? That's their job... to make sure that the contract you're signing is OK. Actually reading a contract without knowledge of the law, case history, and background can get you into just as much trouble as not reading it at all. That's why you have lawyers review important contracts.

gisikw 14y ago
Having your lawyer read something is no excuse for not also reading it yourself.
- jakejake 14y ago
  If course we're supposed to read it but in some situations it's not realistic. Buying a house involves hundreds of pages. Unless you're a lawyer, the average person isn't going to recognize loopholes in the contracts. And I don't know many people who would back out on a house sale at that stage, so it's highly unlikely you'd refuse to sign. The only practical way to do that is to get an advance copy of everything. In these cases you really do need a lawyer who you trust has read the documents and is protecting you.
  - johnnyg 14y ago
    I read each and every page before I purchased my home. I highlighted everything I didn't understand. Most pages looked like bumble bees. I worked questions during a 5 hour session with my realtor. For terms I now understood but didn't agree with, I had two options depending on the type of term it was: 1. Government and HOA stuff was not changing. I could accept it or walk. 2. Seller stuff could change. We made some minor requests and largely got them. Reasoning: We were spending 6 figures. The quality of my work would have a major impact on my family for a long time to come. I was newly married and this was my first family related big project. I was damn sure going to understand how interest rates and loans work ("whats a point?", "fixed vs float") and what legal junk we might be getting into. I got a chance to learn a little about real estate. When life throws you a stack of legal documents, make lemonade. I also got to vet out the agent. I work hard and have had some business success. I figured one day it would be time for another house and it would be nice to have a long term relationship with a trusted realtor on that one too. Core point: it is your name on the document, it is a lot of money, it impacts your feature. Exactly how lazy are you to not read it?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - Drbble 14y ago
      From your description it seems that nothing important came of reading the contract, it was boilerplate except for some minor points.
    - jakejake 14y ago
      I wouldn't consider anyone lazy for hiring an attorney to read the fine print and summarize it, rather than reading every word. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of actually protecting yourself. It doesn't hurt anything to read the documents, but it's not a substitute for actual legal counsel. I also would not trust my real estate agent explaining the contract to me. Just like you should never go with your real estate agent recommended house inspector. Your real estate agent may be the nicest person on earth, but they have a vested interest in the deal going through. It's prudent to find your own attorney and housing inspector who are not associated with each other. Nobody really tells you these things unfortunately and it is scary as hell making that first house purchase!
- k_l_s 14y ago
  This has to be one of the most exploited (mis?)conceptions of the 21st century. Doctors, employers, websites, software plugins, account agreements, almost everything with which one interacts in the normal course of a modern life has a massive privacy statement that, using the unnatural jargon of the law as a gate, makes unreasonable statements which destroy the rights of the consumer and create rights for the provider. I recall a recent trip to the eye doctor where the standard document made the statement that I pre-consent to any and all treatment that the doctor orders and pre-agree to be financially responsible for all such treatments in case my insurance does not pay. My guess is that most of us have inadvertently pre-consented our finances and other aspects of our lives to various companies via these statements buried within the haystack of legalese that must be "signed" in order to operate a 21st century life.
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    I've walked from doctors offices when faced with similar waivers: pre-auth, non-disparagement, and binding arbitration being notable red flags.
- quanticle 14y ago
  That makes about as much sense as, "Paying a developer to write your code is no excuse for not also writing it yourself." The lawyer is a profession. His or her job is to read and review contracts, just like my job is to write code. Does your boss rewrite every line of code you write? When you take your car to a mechanic, do you insist on re-doing all of the repairs yourself? So why are you insisting on rereading contracts that your lawyer has already reviewed?
  - Daniel_Newby 14y ago
    The lawyer's job is to prevent legal mistakes, not business mistakes. Only you can look after your business interests.
    - quanticle 14y ago
      Well, right, but that's no justification for repeating the lawyer's work. That's an argument for making your business requirements clear to the lawyer. It's the same argument for both law and programming. Badly communicated requirements yield bad results.
      - Daniel_Newby 14y ago
        You may find it difficult to convey your needs in enough detail for a small contract review.
7402 14y ago
The first time I rented a car, I spent 10 minutes reading the rental agreement. I don't do that any more; I just glance at it and sign it. I am not a lawyer. Suppose a rental car matter ended up court. I would rather not have to say to the judge, "I spent 10 minutes thoughtfully reading and evaluating the contract, and after careful consideration decided to accept the agreement." I would rather be able to say, "Gee, it was printed in gray ink in tiny type on the back of the paper, and they told me to just sign here on the front to get the car. I needed the car, so I did what they told me." I never accept the "standard contract" when it comes to employment or consulting gigs - then I always read carefully, propose alterations, and often talk to my lawyer. But if it really is a "standard contract" signed by millions (including, presumably, lots of lawyers, too) then I am inclined to balance the risks and benefits and opt for ignorance over informed consent.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  Fortunately those agreements are fairly standard between the major rental companies, so the future contracts are not going to change much. You still know general gotcha's while renting a car now.
- davidcuddeback 14y ago
  I always read employment contracts before signing them, too. Last time I did this, the contract said something to the effect of, "The company can modify this agreement at any time without notifying the employee." I immediately crossed out that clause and initialed.
  - Periodic 14y ago
    Does that actually work? Is it enforceable? I would imagine that if you sent back a contract with modifications for their review that they would balk at hiring or you would get involved with the lawyers who are so much better at legal negotiating than you are. I definitely would not do that with a consulting contract. The chance that something weird would come up is generally worth it to get a good client.
    - 14y ago
mbreese 14y ago
I completely agree. When I bought a house (and later sold it), the day before, we had the title company forward all of the documents to our lawyer to review. When he gave his okay, I felt perfectly comfortable signing multiple documents that I never read. For something like that, it's important to have someone with some knowledge go over things first. Was I really going to be in a position to slowly read over documents for 3 hours and potentially hold up closing just because I didn't understand a contract? No. So, it's best to let a lawyer do his/her job.
- jlarocco 14y ago
  It's better than not reading it, but you still don't really know what you're signing. Maybe there's some catch or you're on the hook for something and the lawyer doesn't say anything (or even notice) because it's relatively standard for that kind of contract? Probably a better use of time and money is to have them forward the documents to you, read over them the day before and ask a lawyer if you have any questions.
  - mbreese 14y ago
    Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job. Buying a house is a bit different though, because you have the purchase agreement and then you have the contracts you sign at closing. We examined the purchase agreement in depth with our lawyer, since that is what sets the context for the rest of the transaction documents. However, once that was out of the way, there was no need for us to read anything - so long as our lawyer signed off on it. It also depends on how much you trust your lawyer...
    - jlarocco 14y ago
      > Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job. Right, which is why I suggested asking a lawyer if anything in the contract was unclear. IMO, it seems like having the lawyer read it without reading it yourself is just deferring the decision to the lawyer. How can you convey to the lawyer what you're okay agreeing too, and what you would take issue with? What are you getting out of it above and beyond the "Everybody signs it, so it can't be too bad," approach? What if, after signing the contract, you find out there's a clause you disagree with, but the lawyer tells you, "Oh, I didn't think you'd mind because that clause is in all of the contracts like this and everybody else is always okay with it." Maybe it really just depends on how well a person knows and trusts their lawyer?
steve-howard 14y ago
How much would it cost to get a lawyer to go over some contracts with you and let you know what's in there that you don't want? I imagine it depends on the type of contract, but a guess would be helpful.
- liber8 14y ago
  Depends on where you are. In SF, you're looking at a minimum of about $200 an hour (for a fairly inexperienced lawyer, who will take longer). If you want a 10 year lawyer who actually knows what he's doing, you're looking at about $300-$600 (depending on experience, what kind of firm he's at, etc.). Lawyers don't read much faster than you would, so you can basically do the math on what to expect, based on the size of the stack of documents you want read. If it's a three page contract, and you don't have an existing relationship with the attorney, you'll probably just be charged a flat fee of a couple hundred bucks, or nothing, depending on what sort of other business you might bring in.

by spolsky 14y ago

gisikw 14y ago

Having your lawyer read something is no excuse for not also reading it yourself.

jakejake 14y ago
If course we're supposed to read it but in some situations it's not realistic. Buying a house involves hundreds of pages. Unless you're a lawyer, the average person isn't going to recognize loopholes in the contracts. And I don't know many people who would back out on a house sale at that stage, so it's highly unlikely you'd refuse to sign. The only practical way to do that is to get an advance copy of everything. In these cases you really do need a lawyer who you trust has read the documents and is protecting you.
- johnnyg 14y ago
  I read each and every page before I purchased my home. I highlighted everything I didn't understand. Most pages looked like bumble bees. I worked questions during a 5 hour session with my realtor. For terms I now understood but didn't agree with, I had two options depending on the type of term it was: 1. Government and HOA stuff was not changing. I could accept it or walk. 2. Seller stuff could change. We made some minor requests and largely got them. Reasoning: We were spending 6 figures. The quality of my work would have a major impact on my family for a long time to come. I was newly married and this was my first family related big project. I was damn sure going to understand how interest rates and loans work ("whats a point?", "fixed vs float") and what legal junk we might be getting into. I got a chance to learn a little about real estate. When life throws you a stack of legal documents, make lemonade. I also got to vet out the agent. I work hard and have had some business success. I figured one day it would be time for another house and it would be nice to have a long term relationship with a trusted realtor on that one too. Core point: it is your name on the document, it is a lot of money, it impacts your feature. Exactly how lazy are you to not read it?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - Drbble 14y ago
    From your description it seems that nothing important came of reading the contract, it was boilerplate except for some minor points.
  - jakejake 14y ago
    I wouldn't consider anyone lazy for hiring an attorney to read the fine print and summarize it, rather than reading every word. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of actually protecting yourself. It doesn't hurt anything to read the documents, but it's not a substitute for actual legal counsel. I also would not trust my real estate agent explaining the contract to me. Just like you should never go with your real estate agent recommended house inspector. Your real estate agent may be the nicest person on earth, but they have a vested interest in the deal going through. It's prudent to find your own attorney and housing inspector who are not associated with each other. Nobody really tells you these things unfortunately and it is scary as hell making that first house purchase!
k_l_s 14y ago
This has to be one of the most exploited (mis?)conceptions of the 21st century. Doctors, employers, websites, software plugins, account agreements, almost everything with which one interacts in the normal course of a modern life has a massive privacy statement that, using the unnatural jargon of the law as a gate, makes unreasonable statements which destroy the rights of the consumer and create rights for the provider. I recall a recent trip to the eye doctor where the standard document made the statement that I pre-consent to any and all treatment that the doctor orders and pre-agree to be financially responsible for all such treatments in case my insurance does not pay. My guess is that most of us have inadvertently pre-consented our finances and other aspects of our lives to various companies via these statements buried within the haystack of legalese that must be "signed" in order to operate a 21st century life.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  I've walked from doctors offices when faced with similar waivers: pre-auth, non-disparagement, and binding arbitration being notable red flags.
quanticle 14y ago
That makes about as much sense as, "Paying a developer to write your code is no excuse for not also writing it yourself." The lawyer is a profession. His or her job is to read and review contracts, just like my job is to write code. Does your boss rewrite every line of code you write? When you take your car to a mechanic, do you insist on re-doing all of the repairs yourself? So why are you insisting on rereading contracts that your lawyer has already reviewed?
- Daniel_Newby 14y ago
  The lawyer's job is to prevent legal mistakes, not business mistakes. Only you can look after your business interests.
  - quanticle 14y ago
    Well, right, but that's no justification for repeating the lawyer's work. That's an argument for making your business requirements clear to the lawyer. It's the same argument for both law and programming. Badly communicated requirements yield bad results.
    - Daniel_Newby 14y ago
      You may find it difficult to convey your needs in enough detail for a small contract review.

7402 14y ago

The first time I rented a car, I spent 10 minutes reading the rental agreement. I don't do that any more; I just glance at it and sign it. I am not a lawyer. Suppose a rental car matter ended up court. I would rather not have to say to the judge, "I spent 10 minutes thoughtfully reading and evaluating the contract, and after careful consideration decided to accept the agreement." I would rather be able to say, "Gee, it was printed in gray ink in tiny type on the back of the paper, and they told me to just sign here on the front to get the car. I needed the car, so I did what they told me." I never accept the "standard contract" when it comes to employment or consulting gigs - then I always read carefully, propose alterations, and often talk to my lawyer. But if it really is a "standard contract" signed by millions (including, presumably, lots of lawyers, too) then I am inclined to balance the risks and benefits and opt for ignorance over informed consent.

mahyarm 14y ago
Fortunately those agreements are fairly standard between the major rental companies, so the future contracts are not going to change much. You still know general gotcha's while renting a car now.
davidcuddeback 14y ago
I always read employment contracts before signing them, too. Last time I did this, the contract said something to the effect of, "The company can modify this agreement at any time without notifying the employee." I immediately crossed out that clause and initialed.
- Periodic 14y ago
  Does that actually work? Is it enforceable? I would imagine that if you sent back a contract with modifications for their review that they would balk at hiring or you would get involved with the lawyers who are so much better at legal negotiating than you are. I definitely would not do that with a consulting contract. The chance that something weird would come up is generally worth it to get a good client.
  - 14y ago

mbreese 14y ago

I completely agree. When I bought a house (and later sold it), the day before, we had the title company forward all of the documents to our lawyer to review. When he gave his okay, I felt perfectly comfortable signing multiple documents that I never read. For something like that, it's important to have someone with some knowledge go over things first. Was I really going to be in a position to slowly read over documents for 3 hours and potentially hold up closing just because I didn't understand a contract? No. So, it's best to let a lawyer do his/her job.

jlarocco 14y ago
It's better than not reading it, but you still don't really know what you're signing. Maybe there's some catch or you're on the hook for something and the lawyer doesn't say anything (or even notice) because it's relatively standard for that kind of contract? Probably a better use of time and money is to have them forward the documents to you, read over them the day before and ask a lawyer if you have any questions.
- mbreese 14y ago
  Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job. Buying a house is a bit different though, because you have the purchase agreement and then you have the contracts you sign at closing. We examined the purchase agreement in depth with our lawyer, since that is what sets the context for the rest of the transaction documents. However, once that was out of the way, there was no need for us to read anything - so long as our lawyer signed off on it. It also depends on how much you trust your lawyer...
  - jlarocco 14y ago
    > Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job. Right, which is why I suggested asking a lawyer if anything in the contract was unclear. IMO, it seems like having the lawyer read it without reading it yourself is just deferring the decision to the lawyer. How can you convey to the lawyer what you're okay agreeing too, and what you would take issue with? What are you getting out of it above and beyond the "Everybody signs it, so it can't be too bad," approach? What if, after signing the contract, you find out there's a clause you disagree with, but the lawyer tells you, "Oh, I didn't think you'd mind because that clause is in all of the contracts like this and everybody else is always okay with it." Maybe it really just depends on how well a person knows and trusts their lawyer?

steve-howard 14y ago

How much would it cost to get a lawyer to go over some contracts with you and let you know what's in there that you don't want? I imagine it depends on the type of contract, but a guess would be helpful.

liber8 14y ago
Depends on where you are. In SF, you're looking at a minimum of about $200 an hour (for a fairly inexperienced lawyer, who will take longer). If you want a 10 year lawyer who actually knows what he's doing, you're looking at about $300-$600 (depending on experience, what kind of firm he's at, etc.). Lawyers don't read much faster than you would, so you can basically do the math on what to expect, based on the size of the stack of documents you want read. If it's a three page contract, and you don't have an existing relationship with the attorney, you'll probably just be charged a flat fee of a couple hundred bucks, or nothing, depending on what sort of other business you might bring in.