5 ms·

Plenty of that isn't advisable now. I flew Frankfurt to Singapore at the end of 2022 and we flew over the south side of the Black Sea to avoid Ukrainian and Rus

Plenty of that isn't advisable now. I flew Frankfurt to Singapore at the end of 2022 and we flew over the south side of the Black Sea to avoid Ukrainian and Russian airspace. We also avoided Afghanistan and flew over Iran instead which slightly surprised me. Looks like London-Singapore flights do the same https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq305#3437e32f https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sq305#3437e32f

lxgr 3y ago
It's less the airlines being cautious (like they finally started being over Ukraine, but not until MH17): Russia has just closed their airspace to most Western airlines (and vice versa). This leads to sometimes quite extreme differences in travel times between two cities depending on whether a Western or e.g. Chinese airline are conducting the flight (e.g. London-Shanghai), since Chinese airlines can still overfly both Europe and Russia.
- eigenket 3y ago
  Singapore Airlines (who I flew with) wasn't barred from Russian airspace but they have decided to voluntarily avoid it.
  - eastbound 3y ago
    Another thing into play are the airspace fees. It’s a substantial income for Russia. It’s possible that some airlines estimate that they are too high, just out of economic factors and not political factors. https://simpleflying.com/russia-overflight-charge-hike/ https://simpleflying.com/russia-overflight-charge-hike/ They skyrocketed (pun intended) by 20% just in 2023, amount to $1.7bn and are justified by the radar and route operators, and by the …security provided by the Russian army. After downing the MH317, many airlines avoided the Ukrainian airspace… in profit of the (unavoidable?) Russian one, further benefiting Russia for this horrible crime. Killing those people may even have provided more revenue to Russia.
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Oh yes, a while ago the Chinese airline Air China wanted to fly from New York to Beijing over Russian airspace (the shortest path does involve Russian airspace) but the U.S. government prohibited them from doing that as a matter of fairness. The end result is that the Chinese airline had to operate a domestic flight from New York to Los Angeles in order to fly to Beijing. https://viewfromthewing.com/air-china-has-filed-to-fly-new-york-to-los-angeles/ https://viewfromthewing.com/air-china-has-filed-to-fly-new-y...
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > The end result is that the Chinese airline had to operate a domestic flight from New York to Los Angeles in order to fly to Beijing. This isn't unheard-of. Qantas does (or used to) do this as well, running SYD-LAX-JFK, for efficiency reasons. Cabotage laws prohibit 081/CCA from carrying any passengers on the domestic leg of that route except the ones that are booked on the international leg of the journey as well. So it's not like you can just book a flight with them domestically.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      This concept is called "freedoms of the air" in case anyone is curious about learning more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
- avar 3y ago
  It's less the airlines being cautious (like they finally started being over Ukraine, but not until MH17) You are misrecalling the chronology. Some airlines such as British Airways were avoiding that airspace before MH17 was shot down, it was making the news beforehand. Other airlines such as Malaysia Airlines continued rolling the dice on flying in an active warzone. What changed after MH17 was that avoiding it was mandated by the relevant authorities.

lxgr 3y ago

It's less the airlines being cautious (like they finally started being over Ukraine, but not until MH17): Russia has just closed their airspace to most Western airlines (and vice versa). This leads to sometimes quite extreme differences in travel times between two cities depending on whether a Western or e.g. Chinese airline are conducting the flight (e.g. London-Shanghai), since Chinese airlines can still overfly both Europe and Russia.

eigenket 3y ago
Singapore Airlines (who I flew with) wasn't barred from Russian airspace but they have decided to voluntarily avoid it.
- eastbound 3y ago
  Another thing into play are the airspace fees. It’s a substantial income for Russia. It’s possible that some airlines estimate that they are too high, just out of economic factors and not political factors. https://simpleflying.com/russia-overflight-charge-hike/ https://simpleflying.com/russia-overflight-charge-hike/ They skyrocketed (pun intended) by 20% just in 2023, amount to $1.7bn and are justified by the radar and route operators, and by the …security provided by the Russian army. After downing the MH317, many airlines avoided the Ukrainian airspace… in profit of the (unavoidable?) Russian one, further benefiting Russia for this horrible crime. Killing those people may even have provided more revenue to Russia.
kccqzy 3y ago
Oh yes, a while ago the Chinese airline Air China wanted to fly from New York to Beijing over Russian airspace (the shortest path does involve Russian airspace) but the U.S. government prohibited them from doing that as a matter of fairness. The end result is that the Chinese airline had to operate a domestic flight from New York to Los Angeles in order to fly to Beijing. https://viewfromthewing.com/air-china-has-filed-to-fly-new-york-to-los-angeles/ https://viewfromthewing.com/air-china-has-filed-to-fly-new-y...
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > The end result is that the Chinese airline had to operate a domestic flight from New York to Los Angeles in order to fly to Beijing. This isn't unheard-of. Qantas does (or used to) do this as well, running SYD-LAX-JFK, for efficiency reasons. Cabotage laws prohibit 081/CCA from carrying any passengers on the domestic leg of that route except the ones that are booked on the international leg of the journey as well. So it's not like you can just book a flight with them domestically.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    This concept is called "freedoms of the air" in case anyone is curious about learning more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
avar 3y ago
It's less the airlines being cautious (like they finally started being over Ukraine, but not until MH17) You are misrecalling the chronology. Some airlines such as British Airways were avoiding that airspace before MH17 was shot down, it was making the news beforehand. Other airlines such as Malaysia Airlines continued rolling the dice on flying in an active warzone. What changed after MH17 was that avoiding it was mandated by the relevant authorities.