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Okay, that's a nice anecdote. Is your point that no one should be allowed to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their devices because your parent

Okay, that's a nice anecdote. Is your point that no one should be allowed to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their devices because your parent was incapable of dealing with the responsibility? Do you also want to take away everyone's cars because of traffic deaths? That's far more serious than someone's parent installing malware on their shiny digital toys. What about taking away kitchen knifes? Those things sure are dangerous!

laborcontract 3y ago
You're missing the point entirely. The idea of a "freedom to install" is incidental to what happened in the market which is that Apple made a platform that people felt secure and happy in. Consumers Apple's product to the extent that Apple became a dominant force in the market. That's the house they chose to live in. It's a house in which no knives existed. Now you're saying "let them put knives in, how dare you restrict them from having a knife!" whereas most consumers are saying "I like this house, wow living here feels great.". It's not a knife issue. You're trying to make it a knife issue. The success of the iPhone was never obvious from day one. To attribute Apple's success to monopolistic behavior and consumer oppression, rather consumer behavior and expression, is just denying reality.
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  > It's still wild to me how they managed to get people to argue against the freedom to install whatever they want on their device.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    And it is the "they" that I'm arguing against, not the rest of it.
ben_w 3y ago
> Okay, that's a nice anecdote. Is your point that no one should be allowed to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their devices because your parent was incapable of dealing with the responsibility? That this isn't "infantilizing". > Do you also want to take away everyone's cars because of traffic deaths? That's far more serious than someone's parent installing malware on their shiny digital toys. My mum did that for my gran when my gran got Alzheimer's and my mum realised she'd been driving for 6 months without paying road tax. And then the same happened to my mum. Also, you're giving the exact argument in favour of self-driving cars as soon as the tech is actually ready, and also the reason that crumple zones and seatbelts are mandatory. And also the reason we have (revokable) driving tests to be allowed to use the vehicles in the first place. > What about taking away kitchen knifes? Those things sure are dangerous! https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives has a high degree of popular support, and has done since I was a kid myself.
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  > Also, you're giving the exact argument in favour of self-driving cars as soon as the tech is actually ready, and also the reason that crumple zones and seatbelts are mandatory. No, that's dangerous! Everyone should crawl everywhere while wearing an iHelmet if we were to apply apple's modus operandi to transportation. > And also the reason we have (revokable) driving tests to be allowed to use the vehicles in the first place. Hmm, so you think that maybe qualified people should be allowed to use dangerous devices? I'm fine with you taking devices away from your parents. That's up to you and your parent. > https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives has a high degree of popular support, and has done since I was a kid myself. Is your argument that your iphone should not be allowed outside where it might scare other people? Odd take. Even in the UK an adult is allowed to buy & posses a kitchen knife.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > That's up to you and your parent. I wrote "Back when he was still alive", so… no. > Is your argument that your iphone should not be allowed outside where it might scare other people? Odd take. No, and I don't know why you'd think that. In fact, that's such a weird take, I think you wrote that in bad faith. > Even in the UK an adult is allowed to buy & posses a kitchen knife. Buy, yes. Possess in public without "good reason" as defined by the police and prosecution, no.
maccard 3y ago
> Do you also want to take away everyone's cars because of traffic deaths? That's far more serious than someone's parent installing malware on their shiny digital toys. This isn't the same thing. The equivalent in your anecdote is that Car A comes with a three point seatbelt that you don't want to use, and you want Car A to be sold without it so you can use your preferred safety device, despite multiple current owners of Car A telling you that they _want_ the three point seatbelt. And you can always buy Car B if you want to install a lap belt instead.

laborcontract 3y ago

You're missing the point entirely. The idea of a "freedom to install" is incidental to what happened in the market which is that Apple made a platform that people felt secure and happy in. Consumers Apple's product to the extent that Apple became a dominant force in the market. That's the house they chose to live in. It's a house in which no knives existed. Now you're saying "let them put knives in, how dare you restrict them from having a knife!" whereas most consumers are saying "I like this house, wow living here feels great.". It's not a knife issue. You're trying to make it a knife issue. The success of the iPhone was never obvious from day one. To attribute Apple's success to monopolistic behavior and consumer oppression, rather consumer behavior and expression, is just denying reality.

beeboobaa 3y ago
> It's still wild to me how they managed to get people to argue against the freedom to install whatever they want on their device.
- ben_w 3y ago
  And it is the "they" that I'm arguing against, not the rest of it.

ben_w 3y ago

> Okay, that's a nice anecdote. Is your point that no one should be allowed to have the freedom to install whatever they want on their devices because your parent was incapable of dealing with the responsibility? That this isn't "infantilizing". > Do you also want to take away everyone's cars because of traffic deaths? That's far more serious than someone's parent installing malware on their shiny digital toys. My mum did that for my gran when my gran got Alzheimer's and my mum realised she'd been driving for 6 months without paying road tax. And then the same happened to my mum. Also, you're giving the exact argument in favour of self-driving cars as soon as the tech is actually ready, and also the reason that crumple zones and seatbelts are mandatory. And also the reason we have (revokable) driving tests to be allowed to use the vehicles in the first place. > What about taking away kitchen knifes? Those things sure are dangerous! https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives has a high degree of popular support, and has done since I was a kid myself.

beeboobaa 3y ago
> Also, you're giving the exact argument in favour of self-driving cars as soon as the tech is actually ready, and also the reason that crumple zones and seatbelts are mandatory. No, that's dangerous! Everyone should crawl everywhere while wearing an iHelmet if we were to apply apple's modus operandi to transportation. > And also the reason we have (revokable) driving tests to be allowed to use the vehicles in the first place. Hmm, so you think that maybe qualified people should be allowed to use dangerous devices? I'm fine with you taking devices away from your parents. That's up to you and your parent. > https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives has a high degree of popular support, and has done since I was a kid myself. Is your argument that your iphone should not be allowed outside where it might scare other people? Odd take. Even in the UK an adult is allowed to buy & posses a kitchen knife.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > That's up to you and your parent. I wrote "Back when he was still alive", so… no. > Is your argument that your iphone should not be allowed outside where it might scare other people? Odd take. No, and I don't know why you'd think that. In fact, that's such a weird take, I think you wrote that in bad faith. > Even in the UK an adult is allowed to buy & posses a kitchen knife. Buy, yes. Possess in public without "good reason" as defined by the police and prosecution, no.

maccard 3y ago

> Do you also want to take away everyone's cars because of traffic deaths? That's far more serious than someone's parent installing malware on their shiny digital toys. This isn't the same thing. The equivalent in your anecdote is that Car A comes with a three point seatbelt that you don't want to use, and you want Car A to be sold without it so you can use your preferred safety device, despite multiple current owners of Car A telling you that they _want_ the three point seatbelt. And you can always buy Car B if you want to install a lap belt instead.