3 ms·
There's a big geo-political component now at play, at least when it comes to Europe (I live in Europe). Meaning that the Europeans can try and upset the big Ame
by paganel 3y ago
There's a big geo-political component now at play, at least when it comes to Europe (I live in Europe). Meaning that the Europeans can try and upset the big American corporations up to a point (almost 2 billion euros as in this case), but not any further, because at the end of it all the security of the continent depends on American hegemony, on American guns and ultimately on American money.
From that point of view the situation back in the '90s was a lot more fluid, as at some point there were even talks of an Europe that would have extended "from Lisbon to Vladivostok" (so leaving the Americans out of it altogether).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago> the security of the continent depends on American hegemony, on American guns and ultimately on American money. And the security of the American chip industry depends on ASML machines, and American airline passengers depend on EU made airplanes. What's your point? Every post-WW2 economy is dependent on the other economies nowadays. There's no fully independent economy that can survive on its own anymore. US (and other including EU) companies get fined because they break EU laws, it's not done out of spite. If they dont wanna get fined they should stop breaking the laws. Simple.
- paganel 3y agoI didn't say it was "out of spite", to the contrary, I said that the measures should have been (and could have been, given a different geo-political context) a lot harsher, such as trying to breaking up Apple's operations in Europe and more. That type of action is off the table for the foreseeable future, and the same goes for the other big US tech companies that are operating in Europe in defiance of the spirit of EU laws, such as Alphabet and Meta (anything related to Musk is a special case because of politics-related concerns).
- pb7 3y agoThe US doesn’t need Airbus. Europe needs American tech.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoYeah, what would we do without Windows, Facebook and Instagram stealing our personal info and pushing us ads? /s
- pb7 3y agoMost of Europe’s communication can be severed by turning off WhatsApp servers. That’s just one product out of thousands that Europeans take for granted every day. Operating systems, maps, productivity, communications, cloud, entertainment, the list is never ending. Europe is extremely dependent on American tech. An indisputable fact.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>Most European communication can be severed by turning off WhatsApp servers. Oh no, what am I gonna do then?! Oh wait, I can just contact people by GSM voice or SMS, or use Signal or Threema the secure Swiss messanging service. FYI, the US communication can be disrupted too because they're using Nokia-Siemens 5G stations since the US has no local players in this space anymore. Let's stop being childish, ok? This isn't a CoD lobby for edgy 8 yearolds.
- pb7 3y agoAnd yet you use WhatsApp because the European alternatives are hot garbage. Same with every other product domain. Regulation isn’t innovation.
- Hamuko 3y agoDisrupted, sure. Severed? You do know that we still have a functioning SMS network, right? Also, personally, I don't even use WhatsApp since I can communicate with my family using Signal. It's so easy that even my grandma uses it.
- sensanaty 3y agoMy company is highly intertwined with WA and if they killed it off in the EU, we'd just switch to Signal/Telegram/the millions of other secure messaging services out there ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯
- RandomLensman 3y agoThat security arrangement is currently dissolving, so those ideas around not upsetting the US are fading.
- paganel 3y agoWe'll have to wait and see, for the moment I think it's mere posturing coming from some European leaders. To begin with, the European nuclear deterrent when it comes to keeping Russian on their toes is a joke compared to what the American have as part of their arsenal.
- RandomLensman 3y agoThe US signaled pretty clearly that it cannot be relied upon so Europe will need to react (incl. on nuclear and other deterrence).
- pjc50 3y agoThere is no European nuclear deterrent. The non-proliferation treaties bar any further countries from developing one. It would be a huge upheaval for even Germany or Italy, let alone the EU itself, to develop their own nuclear deterrent. (Not to mention politically impossible within Germany itself!) The UK has a quasi-independent deterrent (we developed our own and then agreed to abandon it and buy the US option instead), but is not part of the EU any more. The only true independent EU nuclear deterrent is France. An under-appreciated aspect of the NATO/EU defence situation is that the US does not actually want the EU, or any of its constituent countries such as the former Axis powers, to become too capable. Or develop a local manufacturing capability that outsells the US one. The US actually prefers a weakish Europe defended by US troops to one strong enough not to need them and even to contemplate removing them.
- RandomLensman 3y agoThe NPT could be exited. Germany is under a tougher bind with the 2+4 treaty, though. Ultimately, Europe is capable of doing its own thing - US or not.
- catothedev 3y agoThe other element at play is that if the EU fines become so egregious that US companies pull out of offering certain products in the EU, then what would fill the vacuum? Answer: Chinese tech companies with CCP control - essentially building a direct pipeline of EU personal data that CCP can weaponize.