4 ms·

The headline implies a win, but I'm not so sure... $820K USD isn't a deterrent and to the plaintiffs, it's minus 100s of hours, distraction and legal fees which

by asah 3y ago

The headline implies a win, but I'm not so sure... $820K USD isn't a deterrent and to the plaintiffs, it's minus 100s of hours, distraction and legal fees which will be high given the complexity.

Drakim 3y ago
It does set legal precedent though which is great.
- larschdk 3y ago
  France has a civil law system where precendent is not binding nor persuasive.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    But it does provide clarified opinion on how to apply tge law in similar cases, and that will be followed in future cases. That's how it works in Germany, and in principle our systems are similar enough.
    - account42 3y ago
      It doesn't even matter if it will be considered for other cases - simply having an example showing that yes the GPL can be enforced will work as a deterrent before things even go to court.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        True, in German it is called "Rechtssicherheit", the presence of a clear, agreed understanding of a law and its application. The idea being, some not 110% defined legal questions get litigated once, and then most follow the outcome.
  - erk__ 3y ago
    Is that also true of opinions of the French supreme court? In Denmark, another civil law system the highest court can give judgement in cases of principal character that should be followed in the future.
  - yard2010 3y ago
    A precedent doesn't have to be binding to be effective
  - addcommitpush 3y ago
    Is it so different in practice? Landmark decisions ([0], [1]) set precedent. The conseil constitutionnel has ruled that its precedent is binding [2]. In fact the majority of current constitutionnal law in France was willed into "constitutionnal" status by a landmark decision of the conseil [3]. I mean precdent can move _laws_ to the _constitution_ (see [4]). That seems pretty binding and persuasive. [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_en_droit_administratif_fran%C3%A7ais https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_en_droit_ad... [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_de_la_Cour_de_cassation_(France) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_de_la_Cour_... [2] https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/1962/6218L.htm https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/1962/6218L.h... [3] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9cision_Libert%C3%A9_d%27association https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9cision_Libert%C3%A9_d%2...: essentially, the council ruled that the preamble of the constitution also had constitutional value (which was not the case previously and still is not for laws) - since it also mentions other texts (the preamble of the 1046 Constitution, the 1789 Bill of rights, etc. those texts also have the same legal power as the constitution. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_principles_recognized_by_the_laws_of_the_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_principles_recogni...
- hcks 3y ago
  The legal precedent: « IF you’re sued and IF you’re found guilty, then you MAY have to pay LESS than the inflation adjusted cost of paying a commercial license, 20 years in the future »
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    Not really. This is just the beginning. Governments are leaning into open source and will likely see protections like this, and their enforcement as helping secure the open supply chain. Which is something they’re already trying to do. I’m not sure about the rest of you out there with companies, but for me the trend seems clear and I’m gonna be much more cautious going forward with the kind of licenses I use both as a vendor and buyer.
sverhagen 3y ago
Entr'Ouvert's website suggests they could've offered a commercial license. Possibly that would've cost Orange less than $820K/€500K. So maybe we should compare that, instead of the full replacement cost.
- mrbn100ful 3y ago
  Entr'Ouvert's offering in 2004 was 500k€ or 0.4€ per users. Les sociétés Orange versent au demeurant au débat un mail interne de la société Entr'Ouvert en date du 16 septembre 2004 s'inscrivant manifestement dans les négociations commerciales au sujet de la licence du logiciel LASSO faisant état de deux propositions, soit « une licence Lasso illimitée à 500.000€ ( à débattre :))) » ou «une licence Lasso par utilisateurs à 0,4€ (c'est la solution que je pousserai volontiers (') ». Elles versent également une autre proposition commerciale de la société Entr'Ouvert en date du 23 juin 2010 portant notamment sur une licence commerciale du logiciel LASSO dans le cadre de projets en cours de France Telecom pour lesquels un prix de 250.000€ est proposé.
ben-schaaf 3y ago
In France the loser must reimburse the winner's legal fees, so those damages are likely in addition to paying Entr’Ouvert's legal costs: https://manhattan.institute/article/to-curb-abuse-in-civil-court-loser-must-pay https://manhattan.institute/article/to-curb-abuse-in-civil-c...
- account42 3y ago
  Presumably not their own costs (time spent, stress, miscelanneous expenditures incurred due to having to attend court) though, right?
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    NAL, but I think these laws typically include all reasonable expenses, but that you'd need to justify/receipt those expenses. So, travel to court each day, accommodation, anything related to running the case, sure. Stress, unlikely because you can't attribute a direct value to it. I think opportunity cost is the biggest for most people, you almost certainly wouldn't be able to claim lost revenue due to your time in court.
    - bdauvergne 3y ago
      No, the french judiciary system is clearly advantageous for big actors, the article 700 (right to be reimbursed of expenses) is a flat fee estimated by the court event if you give every receipts, we got 60k euros, which a less than we spent, which is I think around 100k for 14 years of litigation (we never tried to make the sum as we did know it would no be useful in the end), plus others costs like expertise fees which were shared 50/50 between us and Orange/FranceTelecom.
NoboruWataya 3y ago
From the article: > The compensatory damages were based on both lost profits of the plaintiff and disgorgement of profits of Orange. Moral damages compensate the plaintiff for harm to reputation or other non-monetary injury. Sounds like they had their profits from the breach taken away, and they also had to pay extra in "moral" damages, and also likely would have had to pay both sides' legal fees, as well as having to sink hundreds or thousands of hours into the case. Damages for breach of IP rights (or contract) are generally calculated on the basis of well defined principles, it's not like where a regulator is handing down a fine and has a broad level of discretion to come up with whatever number it deems fair in the circumstances.
kelnos 3y ago
Not to mention it took 14 years for this case to be resolved. I don't know if the defendant continued infringing over all that time, but $820k for a "license" to do so for 14 years seems like not a big deal. Sounds like one of those fines that most companies would just shrug off as a cost of doing business. If I were the defendant's lawyer, I think I'd be pretty successful at framing this to my client as a win.

by asah 3y ago

The headline implies a win, but I'm not so sure... $820K USD isn't a deterrent and to the plaintiffs, it's minus 100s of hours, distraction and legal fees which will be high given the complexity.

Drakim 3y ago

It does set legal precedent though which is great.

larschdk 3y ago
France has a civil law system where precendent is not binding nor persuasive.
- hef19898 3y ago
  But it does provide clarified opinion on how to apply tge law in similar cases, and that will be followed in future cases. That's how it works in Germany, and in principle our systems are similar enough.
  - account42 3y ago
    It doesn't even matter if it will be considered for other cases - simply having an example showing that yes the GPL can be enforced will work as a deterrent before things even go to court.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      True, in German it is called "Rechtssicherheit", the presence of a clear, agreed understanding of a law and its application. The idea being, some not 110% defined legal questions get litigated once, and then most follow the outcome.
- erk__ 3y ago
  Is that also true of opinions of the French supreme court? In Denmark, another civil law system the highest court can give judgement in cases of principal character that should be followed in the future.
- yard2010 3y ago
  A precedent doesn't have to be binding to be effective
- addcommitpush 3y ago
  Is it so different in practice? Landmark decisions ([0], [1]) set precedent. The conseil constitutionnel has ruled that its precedent is binding [2]. In fact the majority of current constitutionnal law in France was willed into "constitutionnal" status by a landmark decision of the conseil [3]. I mean precdent can move _laws_ to the _constitution_ (see [4]). That seems pretty binding and persuasive. [0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_en_droit_administratif_fran%C3%A7ais https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_en_droit_ad... [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_de_la_Cour_de_cassation_(France) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grands_arr%C3%AAts_de_la_Cour_... [2] https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/1962/6218L.htm https://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/decision/1962/6218L.h... [3] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9cision_Libert%C3%A9_d%27association https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9cision_Libert%C3%A9_d%2...: essentially, the council ruled that the preamble of the constitution also had constitutional value (which was not the case previously and still is not for laws) - since it also mentions other texts (the preamble of the 1046 Constitution, the 1789 Bill of rights, etc. those texts also have the same legal power as the constitution. [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_principles_recognized_by_the_laws_of_the_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_principles_recogni...
hcks 3y ago
The legal precedent: « IF you’re sued and IF you’re found guilty, then you MAY have to pay LESS than the inflation adjusted cost of paying a commercial license, 20 years in the future »
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Not really. This is just the beginning. Governments are leaning into open source and will likely see protections like this, and their enforcement as helping secure the open supply chain. Which is something they’re already trying to do. I’m not sure about the rest of you out there with companies, but for me the trend seems clear and I’m gonna be much more cautious going forward with the kind of licenses I use both as a vendor and buyer.

sverhagen 3y ago

Entr'Ouvert's website suggests they could've offered a commercial license. Possibly that would've cost Orange less than $820K/€500K. So maybe we should compare that, instead of the full replacement cost.

mrbn100ful 3y ago
Entr'Ouvert's offering in 2004 was 500k€ or 0.4€ per users. Les sociétés Orange versent au demeurant au débat un mail interne de la société Entr'Ouvert en date du 16 septembre 2004 s'inscrivant manifestement dans les négociations commerciales au sujet de la licence du logiciel LASSO faisant état de deux propositions, soit « une licence Lasso illimitée à 500.000€ ( à débattre :))) » ou «une licence Lasso par utilisateurs à 0,4€ (c'est la solution que je pousserai volontiers (') ». Elles versent également une autre proposition commerciale de la société Entr'Ouvert en date du 23 juin 2010 portant notamment sur une licence commerciale du logiciel LASSO dans le cadre de projets en cours de France Telecom pour lesquels un prix de 250.000€ est proposé.

ben-schaaf 3y ago

In France the loser must reimburse the winner's legal fees, so those damages are likely in addition to paying Entr’Ouvert's legal costs: https://manhattan.institute/article/to-curb-abuse-in-civil-court-loser-must-pay https://manhattan.institute/article/to-curb-abuse-in-civil-c...

account42 3y ago
Presumably not their own costs (time spent, stress, miscelanneous expenditures incurred due to having to attend court) though, right?
- danpalmer 3y ago
  NAL, but I think these laws typically include all reasonable expenses, but that you'd need to justify/receipt those expenses. So, travel to court each day, accommodation, anything related to running the case, sure. Stress, unlikely because you can't attribute a direct value to it. I think opportunity cost is the biggest for most people, you almost certainly wouldn't be able to claim lost revenue due to your time in court.
  - bdauvergne 3y ago
    No, the french judiciary system is clearly advantageous for big actors, the article 700 (right to be reimbursed of expenses) is a flat fee estimated by the court event if you give every receipts, we got 60k euros, which a less than we spent, which is I think around 100k for 14 years of litigation (we never tried to make the sum as we did know it would no be useful in the end), plus others costs like expertise fees which were shared 50/50 between us and Orange/FranceTelecom.

NoboruWataya 3y ago

From the article: > The compensatory damages were based on both lost profits of the plaintiff and disgorgement of profits of Orange. Moral damages compensate the plaintiff for harm to reputation or other non-monetary injury. Sounds like they had their profits from the breach taken away, and they also had to pay extra in "moral" damages, and also likely would have had to pay both sides' legal fees, as well as having to sink hundreds or thousands of hours into the case. Damages for breach of IP rights (or contract) are generally calculated on the basis of well defined principles, it's not like where a regulator is handing down a fine and has a broad level of discretion to come up with whatever number it deems fair in the circumstances.

kelnos 3y ago

Not to mention it took 14 years for this case to be resolved. I don't know if the defendant continued infringing over all that time, but $820k for a "license" to do so for 14 years seems like not a big deal. Sounds like one of those fines that most companies would just shrug off as a cost of doing business. If I were the defendant's lawyer, I think I'd be pretty successful at framing this to my client as a win.