4 ms·

> The Court of Cassation, which is the supreme court of France, reviewed the case and issued an order on October 5, 2022 overturning the decision of the Court o

by guappa 3y ago

> The Court of Cassation, which is the supreme court of France, reviewed the case and issued an order on October 5, 2022 overturning the decision of the Court of Appeal. The case was then remanded to the Court of Appeal, which issued its order this week. I know nothing of france's legal procedures, but it seems strange that the lower court, after being ordered something, could drag its feet for so long.

Tomte 3y ago
The upper court probably didn't direct the lower court to issue a specific judgment, but clarified a legal question, and then the trial had to be repeated in the lower court, with this interpretation of the legal question in mind.
touisteur 3y ago
You're assuming they had the bandwidth to even just process the order from the inbox.
seszett 3y ago
I'm not familiar with the US system but I don't think the court de cassation is actually comparable to the US supreme court. The court de cassation only overturns judgements on the basis of technical details of law, whether every procedure was followed as they should, etc. It doesn't provide any feedback on the actual judgement it overturns (or not). So the court that does the actual judging is free to get to the same judgement as before if it respects the process correctly this time. But this is essentially a new judgement that starts from zero and takes as much time as the first time.
- addcommitpush 3y ago
  And the “is this law constitutional?” part is done by the Constitutional council, which is not quite a court. And there’s a second Supreme Court (Conseil d’État) anyway. Quite different from the US.
  - mcosta 3y ago
    Roman law vs Common law
- lucianbr 3y ago
  > this is essentially a new judgement that starts from zero and takes as much time as the first time Did the court de cassation overturn every single detail pertaining to the original judgement? Kinda feels like they should be able to speed up the new judgement, and only change whatever detail or details the superior court said were wrong. Well, I don't know much about this subject, but these delays make justice less just, and I don't understand how this is not obvious to everyone but the guilty.
  - seszett 3y ago
    The case is almost always sent to a different court from the one that had its judgement overturned. The new court doesn't necessarily have to redo everything from scratch, only the precise points that were overturned, but obviously if it was something early in the procedure then many things might need to be reviewed. I believe what contributes most to the delay though is just that the French legal system (like most others) is overloaded and it just takes time until the case gets to the front of the queue.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Court procedures take a huge amount of time in France and nothing prevents appeals, etc. So it's pretty much usual for the case to take years in the first court then for one party to appeal, which again takes years, and finally for one party to appeal the appeal, which sends the case to Cassation, which again takes years and possibly sends the case back to appeal (which is what has happened here). It's not very unusual for criminal cases to drag on for a decade between arrest and end of all procedures, for instance.
pyrale 3y ago
> I know nothing of france's legal procedures, but it seems strange that the lower court, after being ordered something, could drag its feet for so long. The cour de cassassion can't rule on the case. It rules on whether the previous ruling was made properly according to legal standards. It is possible that the cc broke the previous decision for a reason unrelated to the case matter, and so the lower court can reissue a decision respecting the spirit of their first decision, but without the legal error.

by guappa 3y ago

Tomte 3y ago

The upper court probably didn't direct the lower court to issue a specific judgment, but clarified a legal question, and then the trial had to be repeated in the lower court, with this interpretation of the legal question in mind.

touisteur 3y ago

You're assuming they had the bandwidth to even just process the order from the inbox.

seszett 3y ago

I'm not familiar with the US system but I don't think the court de cassation is actually comparable to the US supreme court. The court de cassation only overturns judgements on the basis of technical details of law, whether every procedure was followed as they should, etc. It doesn't provide any feedback on the actual judgement it overturns (or not). So the court that does the actual judging is free to get to the same judgement as before if it respects the process correctly this time. But this is essentially a new judgement that starts from zero and takes as much time as the first time.

addcommitpush 3y ago
And the “is this law constitutional?” part is done by the Constitutional council, which is not quite a court. And there’s a second Supreme Court (Conseil d’État) anyway. Quite different from the US.
- mcosta 3y ago
  Roman law vs Common law
lucianbr 3y ago
> this is essentially a new judgement that starts from zero and takes as much time as the first time Did the court de cassation overturn every single detail pertaining to the original judgement? Kinda feels like they should be able to speed up the new judgement, and only change whatever detail or details the superior court said were wrong. Well, I don't know much about this subject, but these delays make justice less just, and I don't understand how this is not obvious to everyone but the guilty.
- seszett 3y ago
  The case is almost always sent to a different court from the one that had its judgement overturned. The new court doesn't necessarily have to redo everything from scratch, only the precise points that were overturned, but obviously if it was something early in the procedure then many things might need to be reviewed. I believe what contributes most to the delay though is just that the French legal system (like most others) is overloaded and it just takes time until the case gets to the front of the queue.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Court procedures take a huge amount of time in France and nothing prevents appeals, etc. So it's pretty much usual for the case to take years in the first court then for one party to appeal, which again takes years, and finally for one party to appeal the appeal, which sends the case to Cassation, which again takes years and possibly sends the case back to appeal (which is what has happened here). It's not very unusual for criminal cases to drag on for a decade between arrest and end of all procedures, for instance.

pyrale 3y ago

> I know nothing of france's legal procedures, but it seems strange that the lower court, after being ordered something, could drag its feet for so long. The cour de cassassion can't rule on the case. It rules on whether the previous ruling was made properly according to legal standards. It is possible that the cc broke the previous decision for a reason unrelated to the case matter, and so the lower court can reissue a decision respecting the spirit of their first decision, but without the legal error.