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The article engages in a bit too much overgeneralization for my taste: “Collective harmony and hierarchy are strongly idealised across East Asia,” “Americans ar

The article engages in a bit too much overgeneralization for my taste: “Collective harmony and hierarchy are strongly idealised across East Asia,” “Americans are extremely direct,” etc. There’s a lot more social and individual diversity than statements like that suggest. One data point: I grew up in the U.S. but have lived in Japan for the past forty-one years. I freelanced for Japanese companies for my first two decades here, and I have worked in academia for the last two. In both contexts, socializing does indeed often involve alcohol. But I have had what I consider to be two successful careers here without ever drinking alcohol in my life. I have also known Japanese men who were successful in business and who did not drink at all. Yes, there are social situations where not drinking can be awkward. But, in my experience at least, if one just explains that one doesn’t drink, one can get through those situations without conflict or avoid them entirely without negative effects on one’s social life or career. Also anecdotally: Some of the biggest social drinkers I have known in Japan were Americans or Brits. For some of them, there seemed to be a negative correlation between drinking and business success.

lawgimenez 3y ago
I am from the Philippines and western expats are mostly the ones who gets dead drunk here. I guess they really liked our beers here, the atmosphere, the women, the beach, the value of money. I don’t drink too, antisocial and still having a pretty good career by ditching happy hours, and all those after work nonsense. This article is pretty bad nonetheless.
jbm 3y ago
Another anecdote from me too; I was working in Japan for 12 years, and a lot of it was as a self-employed IT consultant. I don't drink and I never drank ever and was fairly well off by the end of it all. This is not a rare situation anymore either; I know a lot of younger Japanese people who simply refuse to drink. It's no surprise either; alcohol is not cheap on excursions, and the company doesn't pay the bill very often anymore.
jimbob45 3y ago
Are Americans actually considered “extremely direct”? Any foreigners on here able to chime in on if that generalization rings true?
- yaky 3y ago
  As a Ukrainian-American (more so the latter, I've lived in the US for the past 20+ years), US corporate culture requires making any statement into a very polite, almost optional, suggestion ("would you", "it would be great if", etc). Several times I was accused of being "rude" when I made a direct statement. So it is not exactly direct, but I don't have a good cultural reference to compare to either.
- z3n0n 3y ago
  As a German-Israeli, both of which are extremely direct cultures (in different ways), I feel there’s a lot of “dancing around” in American communication culture that seems silly.
cangeroo 3y ago
Would you have been satisfied if the statement said "... are often strongly idealised ..."? Aren't generalizations implicitly simplistic for the majority, while not necessarily true for the minority? Couldn't you say that you are generalizing too much about the author's generalizations? I found your anecdotes interesting, but I often wonder why people take offense at generalizations. East Asian countries are incredibly distinct from each other. I'm not sure that they value drinking beer more than Germans, or wine more than the French? But one vacation spot I know had drunk Chinese die from drunk drowning on a weekly basis. Which may suggest that some groups drink too much, and lack self-control.
- tkgally 3y ago
  > Would you have been satisfied if the statement said "... are often strongly idealised ..."? Yes, I would agree with that statement, at least regarding Japan. I don’t have enough first-hand knowledge to comment about other East Asian countries. As you noted, they seem to be quite different from each other. Thank you for your comments on generalization. I will reply to just one: > I often wonder why people take offense at generalizations. One reason, I suspect, is that generalizations about groups of people can become stereotypes, and people can resent being stereotyped, especially if the generalization/stereotype has negative connotations or if it doesn’t apply to one as an individual.
- tqi 3y ago
  My objection is less to the broad generalizations (though I'm curious what the line between a generalization and stereotype these days) and more that the conclusion the author comes to[1] is exceptionally reductive, and is completely lacking in evidence. Countries like Netherlands, Germany, and Denmark score high on direct negative feedback and confrontation AND have alcohol consumption rates that are similar or higher than Japan[2]. So what are we even talking about here? [1] "If schools and firms explicitly encouraged more direct communication (as does happen in many international East Asian firms), maybe alcohol would be made redundant?" [2] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consumption-per-capita/country-comparison/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consump...
supriyo-biswas 3y ago
I also have to question the point about “direct negative feedback” quoted from Meyer, 2014. In many Indian companies, it is perfectly acceptable to provide negative feedback in public, and in an extremely aggressive way (shouting etc.) which is why people will often go to lengths to prevent others from discovering their mistakes.
a_vanderbilt 3y ago
I get the impression the variable is not social drinking but social adaptitude. I do want your opinion on the matter, however. Every native Japanese person I have known is incredibly reserved. As an example, I had a Japanese coworker, and I did not even know they had a wife until they corrected me in conversation. Maybe it is the subtle aspects of the language (my Japanese is still not great)? I am looking to establish an EOR in Japan and eventually move there with the goal of citizenship, but I've been holding off until I understand the language well enough to get by without outside help.
- tkgally 3y ago
  At the risk of overgeneralizing myself: People in Japan tend to avoid talking about personal matters in the workplace. In my twenty years at a university here, I have met almost none of the spouses or partners of my colleagues, and there have been quite a few colleagues—including ones I worked closely with—whose marital or relationship status I never knew. Faculty social gatherings never included spouses or partners, except informal events organized by the foreign faculty. My impression is that the situation is quite different at universities in the U.S. The exception was children: My Japanese colleagues—both male and female—often mentioned their kids, and at the campus where I worked until COVID it was not unusual for faculty to bring their children to the office during school vacations. The faculty all had private offices, and there was no problem with children hanging out there during the day. That would be much more difficult for office workers, though. Another reason why Japanese people you meet seem reserved could be the language barrier. If they aren’t fluent in English, they may seem less outgoing than they would in their native language. Good luck with your Japanese studies. Knowing the language makes things much easier here.

lawgimenez 3y ago

I am from the Philippines and western expats are mostly the ones who gets dead drunk here. I guess they really liked our beers here, the atmosphere, the women, the beach, the value of money. I don’t drink too, antisocial and still having a pretty good career by ditching happy hours, and all those after work nonsense. This article is pretty bad nonetheless.

jbm 3y ago

Another anecdote from me too; I was working in Japan for 12 years, and a lot of it was as a self-employed IT consultant. I don't drink and I never drank ever and was fairly well off by the end of it all. This is not a rare situation anymore either; I know a lot of younger Japanese people who simply refuse to drink. It's no surprise either; alcohol is not cheap on excursions, and the company doesn't pay the bill very often anymore.

jimbob45 3y ago

Are Americans actually considered “extremely direct”? Any foreigners on here able to chime in on if that generalization rings true?

yaky 3y ago
As a Ukrainian-American (more so the latter, I've lived in the US for the past 20+ years), US corporate culture requires making any statement into a very polite, almost optional, suggestion ("would you", "it would be great if", etc). Several times I was accused of being "rude" when I made a direct statement. So it is not exactly direct, but I don't have a good cultural reference to compare to either.
z3n0n 3y ago
As a German-Israeli, both of which are extremely direct cultures (in different ways), I feel there’s a lot of “dancing around” in American communication culture that seems silly.

cangeroo 3y ago

Would you have been satisfied if the statement said "... are often strongly idealised ..."? Aren't generalizations implicitly simplistic for the majority, while not necessarily true for the minority? Couldn't you say that you are generalizing too much about the author's generalizations? I found your anecdotes interesting, but I often wonder why people take offense at generalizations. East Asian countries are incredibly distinct from each other. I'm not sure that they value drinking beer more than Germans, or wine more than the French? But one vacation spot I know had drunk Chinese die from drunk drowning on a weekly basis. Which may suggest that some groups drink too much, and lack self-control.

tkgally 3y ago
> Would you have been satisfied if the statement said "... are often strongly idealised ..."? Yes, I would agree with that statement, at least regarding Japan. I don’t have enough first-hand knowledge to comment about other East Asian countries. As you noted, they seem to be quite different from each other. Thank you for your comments on generalization. I will reply to just one: > I often wonder why people take offense at generalizations. One reason, I suspect, is that generalizations about groups of people can become stereotypes, and people can resent being stereotyped, especially if the generalization/stereotype has negative connotations or if it doesn’t apply to one as an individual.
tqi 3y ago
My objection is less to the broad generalizations (though I'm curious what the line between a generalization and stereotype these days) and more that the conclusion the author comes to[1] is exceptionally reductive, and is completely lacking in evidence. Countries like Netherlands, Germany, and Denmark score high on direct negative feedback and confrontation AND have alcohol consumption rates that are similar or higher than Japan[2]. So what are we even talking about here? [1] "If schools and firms explicitly encouraged more direct communication (as does happen in many international East Asian firms), maybe alcohol would be made redundant?" [2] https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consumption-per-capita/country-comparison/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/alcohol-consump...

supriyo-biswas 3y ago

I also have to question the point about “direct negative feedback” quoted from Meyer, 2014. In many Indian companies, it is perfectly acceptable to provide negative feedback in public, and in an extremely aggressive way (shouting etc.) which is why people will often go to lengths to prevent others from discovering their mistakes.

a_vanderbilt 3y ago

I get the impression the variable is not social drinking but social adaptitude. I do want your opinion on the matter, however. Every native Japanese person I have known is incredibly reserved. As an example, I had a Japanese coworker, and I did not even know they had a wife until they corrected me in conversation. Maybe it is the subtle aspects of the language (my Japanese is still not great)? I am looking to establish an EOR in Japan and eventually move there with the goal of citizenship, but I've been holding off until I understand the language well enough to get by without outside help.

tkgally 3y ago
At the risk of overgeneralizing myself: People in Japan tend to avoid talking about personal matters in the workplace. In my twenty years at a university here, I have met almost none of the spouses or partners of my colleagues, and there have been quite a few colleagues—including ones I worked closely with—whose marital or relationship status I never knew. Faculty social gatherings never included spouses or partners, except informal events organized by the foreign faculty. My impression is that the situation is quite different at universities in the U.S. The exception was children: My Japanese colleagues—both male and female—often mentioned their kids, and at the campus where I worked until COVID it was not unusual for faculty to bring their children to the office during school vacations. The faculty all had private offices, and there was no problem with children hanging out there during the day. That would be much more difficult for office workers, though. Another reason why Japanese people you meet seem reserved could be the language barrier. If they aren’t fluent in English, they may seem less outgoing than they would in their native language. Good luck with your Japanese studies. Knowing the language makes things much easier here.