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Sergey Brin on Gemini 1.5 Pro (03/02/2024) [video]
- koolba 3y agoWithin a couple sentences of each other he says (paraphrasing), “if you test any model (Gemini, ChatGPT, Grok) you’ll see it says far left things” and “we don’t know why [Gemini] is far left leaning”. I think he’s being honest here. At least at the executive level of having no clue how any of this works or why it leans the way it does.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- adaml_623 3y ago[flagged]
- whelp_24 3y agoI feel like this statement is intellectually dishonest. Especially when Tay existed.
- ionwake 3y ago[flagged]
- gruuuk 3y ago[flagged]
- ajhurliman 3y agoPlease don’t do that; this is a place for educated, civil people to discuss the nuances of our age, not a political flame war.
- huytersd 3y agoIt not wrong though. A lot of right wing ideology requires being okay with cognitive dissonance from compartmentalizing opposing views meant for different scenarios. It’s a legitimate point.
- BurningFrog 3y ago> A lot of right wing ideology requires being okay with cognitive dissonance from compartmentalizing opposing views meant for different scenarios You're not wrong exactly, but you just described human nature. All of our brains work that way by default. It's much harder to see for your own side, of course.
- penjelly 3y agothe same applies to both sides of the political spectrum
- huytersd 3y agoIt really doesn’t. One side actively is advocating for a dictatorship and an end to democracy.
- ohnoitsahuman 3y ago[flagged]
- unethical_ban 3y agoCan I guess if you're a) in your lower 20s or lower, or b) steadily employed with at least a few months of savings and have never been abjectly poor or injured?
- huytersd 3y agoThe current presidential candidate and his party said that at their get together. I don’t think there’s even a far left equivalent when it comes to candidates or parties.
- bigyikes 3y agoNice zinger. What sorts of contradictions do you mean?
- cammikebrown 3y agoMaybe he means practicing what you preach? The party of “small government” is well known for not doing that.
- itake 3y agoA popular one today is the pro-life movement only being pro-life until birth and then refusing to save children's lives (e.g. gun control or adopting unwanted children).
- Vecr 3y agoI don't agree with the position, but that's not correct. You have to think of the concept of evil as something a person does, at least partially independent of context. Shooting children with a gun is evil. Aborting a baby is evil. Selling guns is not evil. Not adopting a child is not evil (or not in almost all situations).
- itake 3y ago> evil as something a person does Proverbs 22:9 The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. People have the choice to share their blessings: Choosing to not share food is evil, Choosing to not share food and your home with a child with no parents is evil, Choosing to not protect children (by banning guns) is evil.
- Georgelemental 3y ago> adopting unwanted children Pro-life people do this literally all the time. Consider how many Christian adoption services are out there, for example. > gun control Most people who oppose gun control would argue that it costs more lives than it saves. --- Please don't straw-man your political opponents like this. At least get to know what they actually believe, before arguing against it.
- bgravinz 3y agoGoogle's institutional biases affect their products. Hard to pretend that's not operative.
- unethical_ban 3y agoYou're correct, but this is HN and we need to put a little bit more effort into our statements. Republican politicians do not attempt to justify their positions, or have honest intellectual debate. Individual conservatives may have reasonable issues or a coherent belief system, but Republican politicians are not trying to solve any pressing problems of our era, including things like immigration. They would rather have it as a wedge issue.
- okbutyoknow 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bushbaba 3y agoEh, half honest. The training dataset at Google likely has a lot of bias towards leftist ideology given that is what Google’s leadership pushes. For example I’m sure left leaning news is in the training dataset whereas say the daily wire is not included. this leads to a model which surfaces those biases with ridiculousness of black Vikings.
- lern_too_spel 3y agoThere's a difference between left and far left hyper-egalitarians, just like there is a difference between right and far right Bible thumpers. Mainstream news is left because it is factually justifiable and reduces societal conflict. Daily Wire is far right because it makes money. Brin is complaining because he thinks the model is far left, which makes neither money nor sense.
- earth2mars 3y agoMaybe there are far more writings on human rights and empowering each other vs. individual liberty, extreme capitalism. It would be good to see what kind of writings from input data dictate this behavior. One could test by simply feeding textbooks in each category and see how it responds.
- treme 3y agojust have to browse /r/politics to see how much conservative views are frowned upon on internets. I'm sure google's decision to buy reddit's archive for 60M/yr won't help much with this.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoI just purchased a book, “Rural White Rage: The Threat to American Democracy,” [1] that talks about what keeps conservatives in power in America. Interestingly, it’s impossible for conservatives to win the popular vote (A Republican President candidate has won the popular vote once in the last 32 years) (page 71, excerpt from Kentucky Rep. Thomas Massie’s press release [2]). It’s only possible with the Electoral College and Gerrymandering. Great book, highly factualized, footnotes and all. Here’s Pew Research’s voter demographics breakdown, because it’s freely available where the book mentioned is not: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/demographic-profiles-of-republican-and-democratic-voters/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/demographic-... > Seven-in-ten Republican voters were 50 and older in the most recent election, compared with 62% of Republican voters in 2020 and 68% in 2018. (My note: this is from the 2022 elections, and 1.8M voters over the age of 55 age out each year) This is all to say, I’m unsure where these people and similar with conservative ideologies who aren’t a majority would post that would make its way into language models. Facebook perhaps? Therefore, liberal bias is simply a majority perspective. [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734507/white-rural-rage-by-tom-schaller-and-paul-waldman/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734507/white-rural-... [2] https://massie.house.gov/news/email/show.aspx?ID=Z5MPA3CVK5FYZQ3KBYQIDSAWB4 https://massie.house.gov/news/email/show.aspx?ID=Z5MPA3CVK5F... (7th paragraph)
- alecco 3y agoI wouldn't trust anything those authors write. Just check out what they say online. Extremely biased propaganda.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoSo their data backed citations are fake news? Sure. The truth can be unpleasant.
- pennomi 3y agoSurely emphasizing concepts like diversity, equity, and being fair to all people regardless of situation or origin in the training data simply makes the results lean slightly left. Essentially trying to make a “nice” AI will skew left due to the political positions of the right on topics like immigration or gender identity.
- johndhi 3y agoYou're saying the left is just straight up nicer than the right? This seems like kind of a weak take.
- deadbolt 3y ago[flagged]
- bigyikes 3y ago[flagged]
- pennomi 3y agoNo, I’m saying that their policies are more inclined to be interpreted as nice/charitable than conservative policies. This covers wide areas such as immigration (allow migrants into the country), welfare (increase social programs, such as guaranteeing school children lunches), gender identity (celebrate diversity and accept everyone equally), gun control (support passing measures to reduce school shootings), racism (support dismantling Confederate monuments), etc. Policy aside, at an individual level, people on both sides are equally nice in my experience.
- zozbot234 3y agoThe issue with these takes is that they all are quite ambiguous. The "Harmonious society" of China is also often described as inherently nicer than the individual freedom and competitive social stance we enjoy in the West, but plenty of people would quibble with that point of view. Similarly, many of the issues you mention have "nice" policy approaches that are closer to what moderate centrists advocate than to anything on the extreme left.
- kjqgqkejbfefn 3y ago>I think he’s being honest here. https://nypost.com/2024/01/08/news/google-co-founder-sergey-brin-and-ex-wife-visited-epsteins-pedophile-island-new-docs/ https://nypost.com/2024/01/08/news/google-co-founder-sergey-...
- MarcelOlsz 3y agoPeople with capital spend time online much less than those without, and in different ways.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- TMWNN 3y ago>Within a couple sentences of each other he says (paraphrasing), “if you test any model (Gemini, ChatGPT, Grok) you’ll see it says far left things” and “we don’t know why [Gemini] is far left leaning”. >I think he’s being honest here. I doubt it. <https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/video-google-leadership-reacting-trump-election-win https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/video-g...>
- diimdeep 3y agoOne can be honest and still be wrong by fooling yourself, people are full of cognitive biases. Here is one explanation why he says that he thinks he does not know why it "is far left leaning" and why he might be wrong here. https://twitter.com/MattWalshShow/status/1760756960452821446 https://twitter.com/MattWalshShow/status/1760756960452821446
- light_hue_1 3y agoLet's be clear. This isn't a left or right thing. That's just a convenient argument to avoid the real problem. It's about moral relativism. I am about as left wing as you can be and gemini is simply offensive. It didn't want to say if Hitler was worse than Elon or Trump. It didn't want to say if child abuse is bad, and if all child abusers should be prosecuted. It rendered WW2 soldiers as black. This isn't left vs right. This is extreme moral relativism to the point of racism. The end point of a line of ethics ML research where people won't take a stand that might offend almost anyone. I work in this area of ML. The goal of having a single model that makes everyone happy is mathematically impossible. If you avoid taking that problem on, you end up with a model like this.
- Vecr 3y agoAre you talking Arrow's?
- svieira 3y ago> It rendered WW2 soldiers as black To be fair, a large number of WWII soldiers _were_ black. Not many of those black soldiers served in the SS for Nazi Germany though, which was the issue with what Gemini was producing.
- light_hue_1 3y agoOh for sure. I meant Nazi WW2 soldiers. Good catch!
- zozbot234 3y agoThese LLM models are just glorified parrots. Why are we even expecting them to display non-trivial insight about complex moral dilemmas? They're going to get things totally wrong and say a lot of silly stuff about the Nazis, that's just normal. No reason to act offended over it or demand 100% "Safety" from answers you might not like.
- bgravinz 3y ago> This isn't left vs right. This is extreme moral relativism to the point of racism. The end point of a line of ethics ML research where people won't take a stand that might offend almost anyone. I think if you created a distribution of the people who "somewhat to strongly agree" that Elon is comparable to Hitler, that distribution would be biased to the left. So in that sense isn't this a left vs right problem?
- adt 3y agoTranscript: https://lifearchitect.ai/sergey/ https://lifearchitect.ai/sergey/
- alecco 3y ago> The Gemini art? Yeah, with the… Okay. That wasn’t really expected [...] > So, once again, we haven’t fully understood why it means “left” in many cases. And that’s not our intention. Riiiight.
- nshm 3y agoAnyone except me thinks he doesn't look very healthy? Its strange he is kind of slow on the video where he enters the room. Maybe some biohacking.