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We killed a hell of a lot of civilians and destabilized the area in predictable ways, while giving Iran a new playground (also, predictably). There’s a straight

We killed a hell of a lot of civilians and destabilized the area in predictable ways, while giving Iran a new playground (also, predictably). There’s a straight line between this, to Syria, to the immigrant crisis in Europe. Hell, Brexit may have failed or not even gotten momentum to become A Thing if not for it. So yes, we were wrong. And we should have known it at the time. It didn’t exactly take a crystal ball to tell what the likely outcomes were (though I admit I didn’t see the effects bleeding over to Europe so strongly!)

mschuster91 3y ago
> There’s a straight line between this, to Syria, to the immigrant crisis in Europe. Syria was a result of the Arab Spring, people were fed up with Assad, and instead of supporting the opposition Obama didn't care about any "red lines" and eventually Russia moved in. Iraq, I partially agree - had the West actually done something to mediate the old conflicts, to provide the people with a source of income, or to prosecute corruption, the country would have had a way better run. The entire Arab Spring's handling by the West was madness. We could have helped actual, legitimate democracy grow on the foundations of the fed-up masses in the region, by providing aid and assistance as well as act as an oversight authority to keep corruption and crime in check, but no, we just looked the other way as many thousands were killed or tortured, and eventually the old elites took power again - and the "soft power", the prestige the US enjoyed, all went down the drain, with the final nail in the coffin being the handling of the Kurds in Syria.
- vundercind 3y ago
  The Syrian civil war was cross-border. ISIS held a large chunk of Iraq at one point. I doubt it’d have lasted as long as it has if that hadn’t been a factor (and the US deliberately making it last longer but not acting decisively enough to end it in victory for “our” side, but that’s a separate matter)
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Yeah, but now imagine that Iraq had been a decently stable country... there's a reason why ISIS was able to take that much of the country.

mschuster91 3y ago

> There’s a straight line between this, to Syria, to the immigrant crisis in Europe. Syria was a result of the Arab Spring, people were fed up with Assad, and instead of supporting the opposition Obama didn't care about any "red lines" and eventually Russia moved in. Iraq, I partially agree - had the West actually done something to mediate the old conflicts, to provide the people with a source of income, or to prosecute corruption, the country would have had a way better run. The entire Arab Spring's handling by the West was madness. We could have helped actual, legitimate democracy grow on the foundations of the fed-up masses in the region, by providing aid and assistance as well as act as an oversight authority to keep corruption and crime in check, but no, we just looked the other way as many thousands were killed or tortured, and eventually the old elites took power again - and the "soft power", the prestige the US enjoyed, all went down the drain, with the final nail in the coffin being the handling of the Kurds in Syria.

vundercind 3y ago
The Syrian civil war was cross-border. ISIS held a large chunk of Iraq at one point. I doubt it’d have lasted as long as it has if that hadn’t been a factor (and the US deliberately making it last longer but not acting decisively enough to end it in victory for “our” side, but that’s a separate matter)
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Yeah, but now imagine that Iraq had been a decently stable country... there's a reason why ISIS was able to take that much of the country.