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My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and mo

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.
- ryoshu 3y ago
  The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints. As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.
  - throwaway98797 3y ago
    not all bosses are like you
    - Gormo 3y ago
      So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?
      - Cyph0n 3y ago
        Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.
        Gormo 3y ago
        Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Yes, the point is that it’s reducing the anxiety to unmask. Your boss may in fact be an asshole and unmasking would make you feel more incautious about being yourself, which might mean a narcissistic outburst from all your pent up frustration.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    My friend used to work for a company headquartered in eastern Europe. The first time his office had an off-site they busted out a handle and said 'okay, no talking about work until this is finished'. The idea was they wouldn't trust you until you were drunk enough everyone could be sure you were too inebriated to hide your true feelings or thoughts. Terribly unhealthy but it supposedly accomplished it's purpose
creer 3y ago
But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education. Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  That’s precisely what it does. Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago

> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.

ryoshu 3y ago
The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints. As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.
- throwaway98797 3y ago
  not all bosses are like you
  - Gormo 3y ago
    So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?
    - Cyph0n 3y ago
      Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.
      - Gormo 3y ago
        Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Yes, the point is that it’s reducing the anxiety to unmask. Your boss may in fact be an asshole and unmasking would make you feel more incautious about being yourself, which might mean a narcissistic outburst from all your pent up frustration.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  My friend used to work for a company headquartered in eastern Europe. The first time his office had an off-site they busted out a handle and said 'okay, no talking about work until this is finished'. The idea was they wouldn't trust you until you were drunk enough everyone could be sure you were too inebriated to hide your true feelings or thoughts. Terribly unhealthy but it supposedly accomplished it's purpose

creer 3y ago

But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education. Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
That’s precisely what it does. Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.