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This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxica

by nox101 3y ago

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-and-civilization/ https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told. In fact, intoxication helps solve a number of distinctively human challenges: enhancing creativity, alleviating stress, building trust, and pulling off the miracle of getting fiercely tribal primates to cooperate with strangers. My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) After living in Asia my entire attitude changed because I never saw a bar fight and I wasn't driving. Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people. Drama's showed people getting in arguments at work and then settling their differences at drinks after work. A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships.

082349872349872 3y ago
see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 (in western firms, compare "what gets said in Powerpoint" vs "what gets said on Slack")
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.
  - ryoshu 3y ago
    The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints. As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.
    - throwaway98797 3y ago
      not all bosses are like you
      - Gormo 3y ago
        So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?
        Cyph0n 3y ago
        Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.
        Gormo 3y ago
        Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
- creer 3y ago
  But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education. Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    That’s precisely what it does. Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.
xkcd-sucks 3y ago
As long as the "big man in the room takes a shot, everyone takes a shot" rule isn't maliciously invoked, you have functional ALDH genetics, aren't a woman, etc.
kelnos 3y ago
> My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) Wow, I guess I just don't hang out with the same kinds of people you do (USA as well). I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash (on either side of it). And yet I've done plenty of drinking (I don't remember much of my 30s because of it, sadly). Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people.* I agree that alcohol is a good social lubricant, and sure, it can be an aid (or even a shortcut) to social bonding. But this article made me believe that, in some East Asian cultures, alcohol is pretty much required to get them to communicate effectively about certain things. That seems... not particularly safe or healthy, not just physically, but emotionally too.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash I grew up drinking and lived in alcohol culture(s). At 25 I moved to another state, didn't drink and mostly circulated in non-drinking circles. Before 25 I saw plenty of alcohol fueled fights. They weren't in bars but neither was I. I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. As for family & friends, they ranged ~evenly from non-drinkers to heavy. After 25 I saw few drinking related issues. I knew vastly more non-drinkers after 25 and can't recall any being hit by drunk drivers (unlike before 25).
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. That is a crazy statistic that would be a clear signal for me to move away.
    - hughesjj 3y ago
      It describes much of American suburbia, regrettably... I grew up in South eastern Pennsylvania and it seemed more like 'when' not 'if' people would get a DUI. When there's not much to do and you live in an area designed for cars, a shocking amount of people will just not give AF and drink drive. Can't afford cabs but can afford the bar.
resolutebat 3y ago
I think the "with food" bit is underrated. Bar/pub food in the West is crappy almost by definition (the occasional gastropub notwithstanding) and many/most people don't eat anything at all, while if you go drinking in Tokyo, food is an absolutely critical part of the izakaya (Japanese pub) experience. It's also quite socially acceptable for women to go to an izakaya and drink oolong tea instead of alcohol all night long. The real social barrier for women is the next round of entertainment, which in sales circles very often entails prostitution in some form or another.
- bigger_cheese 3y ago
  At least here in Australia you get pretty decent food at pubs I mean it's not going to blow your socks off but any pub worth it's name will serve a decent Chicken Schnitzel or Parmigiana. It's the high end hipster bars that tend not to do any food. As a rule of thumb the more blue collar the pub the better the food will be - Builders Clubs and Trade Union associated places tend to have the best food followed by Sports clubs. These places have their own issues though namely poker/slot machines (Gambling is a big problem in this country). I think the differences are mostly cultural I have zero desire to go out drinking with people from my workplace. We have exactly one social event a year - which is the work Christmas Party and that is a fairly tame event.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    The RSLs I've been to in Australia also had decent food for a great price. They're officially for veterans I believe but the ones in smaller towns tend to accept everyone because there isn't that much else around.
  - nox101 3y ago
    food at izakaya is a shared experience. Ordering dishes together, sharing, often getting beer or sake in bottles and pouring a glass for each other. afaik, bar food most western places, even if it's good, is ordered for yourself and so way less social
- hattmall 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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tremere 3y ago
[flagged]
- sho 3y ago
  > I see the consumption of alcohol as weak, immature, and reckless I don't drink, at all, ever. I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that it's been the cause of far more problems than it's ever solved, and it's just better for everyone if I never pick up a glass again. That said, I know plenty of people who somehow do have that chip installed that allows responsible drinking, in moderation, in appropriate settings - and I would never be so judgemental as your quote. There do exist plenty of people who can drink in moderation and without any real negative consequences. Who am I to begrudge or look down on that, and indeed who are you to? There's certainly a lot of people for whom alcohol consumption, knowing all the facts, would indeed be "weak, immature, and reckless". Knowing myself and my history, that list includes me! But there's plenty of people not on that list, and so I just don't think you can make blanket judgements like that.
  - deleted 3y ago
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fzeroracer 3y ago
I think it's less about alcohol and more about how individual cultures and society evolve and create third places. Alcohol can be part of that (such as in pubs or even Romans having engaged in a bit of drinking at the bathhouse) but you also had examples like coffee houses in the 17th century. I think the problem arises when the amount of third places available narrows to strictly a culture around drinking, which increasingly becomes the focus rather than the social aspect.
wslh 3y ago
Isn't this obvious? Coffee and drugs either. Even if drugs were harmless for the health they could probably be prohibited because of the sudden changes a society will experience.
datavirtue 3y ago
Now drinking is healing. Oh, brother.
- euroderf 3y ago
  Taking "beer is liquid bread" to the next level.
Dracophoenix 3y ago
> A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships. Which anime?
- StefanBatory 3y ago
  I believe it's Frieren. Quite good one, actually.
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    The episode with the red headed kid having flashbacks about the ice cream? I didn’t quite have the same takeaway but I suppose that’s one way to look at it. It is an excellent anime however. I suspect it will go down as one of the best anime’s of this decade. Story is great, premise is great, and now at the current episodes, the fighting animation is getting some more love as well. I’m hyped for how it will eventually wrap up!
Log_out_ 3y ago
As everyone is forced to lower their guard, people get to really know one another..

by nox101 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago

see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 (in western firms, compare "what gets said in Powerpoint" vs "what gets said on Slack")

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.
- ryoshu 3y ago
  The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints. As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.
  - throwaway98797 3y ago
    not all bosses are like you
    - Gormo 3y ago
      So alcohol has the added benefit of distinguishing competent leaders from incompetent ones?
      - Cyph0n 3y ago
        Allowing your colleagues to ridicule you doesn’t make you a competent leader.
        Gormo 3y ago
        Being able to accept and adapt to criticism does.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
creer 3y ago
But doesn't that - starting young - simply encourages intoxicants as a prerequisite to any opening up or social contact at all - rather than helping people communicate better and see each other better. That is, it's a crutch and NOT training or re-education. Other communities strive to make communication safer and full of good examples which helps get over excessive shyness. Always seemed a better direction to me.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  That’s precisely what it does. Yes fully open, healthy attachment recognizing, empathy filled communities, are leaps and bounds healthier than ones with pathologically traumatized people coping with that with medication/intoxication.

xkcd-sucks 3y ago

As long as the "big man in the room takes a shot, everyone takes a shot" rule isn't maliciously invoked, you have functional ALDH genetics, aren't a woman, etc.

kelnos 3y ago

> My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) Wow, I guess I just don't hang out with the same kinds of people you do (USA as well). I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash (on either side of it). And yet I've done plenty of drinking (I don't remember much of my 30s because of it, sadly). Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people.* I agree that alcohol is a good social lubricant, and sure, it can be an aid (or even a shortcut) to social bonding. But this article made me believe that, in some East Asian cultures, alcohol is pretty much required to get them to communicate effectively about certain things. That seems... not particularly safe or healthy, not just physically, but emotionally too.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash I grew up drinking and lived in alcohol culture(s). At 25 I moved to another state, didn't drink and mostly circulated in non-drinking circles. Before 25 I saw plenty of alcohol fueled fights. They weren't in bars but neither was I. I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. As for family & friends, they ranged ~evenly from non-drinkers to heavy. After 25 I saw few drinking related issues. I knew vastly more non-drinkers after 25 and can't recall any being hit by drunk drivers (unlike before 25).
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. That is a crazy statistic that would be a clear signal for me to move away.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    It describes much of American suburbia, regrettably... I grew up in South eastern Pennsylvania and it seemed more like 'when' not 'if' people would get a DUI. When there's not much to do and you live in an area designed for cars, a shocking amount of people will just not give AF and drink drive. Can't afford cabs but can afford the bar.

resolutebat 3y ago

I think the "with food" bit is underrated. Bar/pub food in the West is crappy almost by definition (the occasional gastropub notwithstanding) and many/most people don't eat anything at all, while if you go drinking in Tokyo, food is an absolutely critical part of the izakaya (Japanese pub) experience. It's also quite socially acceptable for women to go to an izakaya and drink oolong tea instead of alcohol all night long. The real social barrier for women is the next round of entertainment, which in sales circles very often entails prostitution in some form or another.

bigger_cheese 3y ago
At least here in Australia you get pretty decent food at pubs I mean it's not going to blow your socks off but any pub worth it's name will serve a decent Chicken Schnitzel or Parmigiana. It's the high end hipster bars that tend not to do any food. As a rule of thumb the more blue collar the pub the better the food will be - Builders Clubs and Trade Union associated places tend to have the best food followed by Sports clubs. These places have their own issues though namely poker/slot machines (Gambling is a big problem in this country). I think the differences are mostly cultural I have zero desire to go out drinking with people from my workplace. We have exactly one social event a year - which is the work Christmas Party and that is a fairly tame event.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The RSLs I've been to in Australia also had decent food for a great price. They're officially for veterans I believe but the ones in smaller towns tend to accept everyone because there isn't that much else around.
- nox101 3y ago
  food at izakaya is a shared experience. Ordering dishes together, sharing, often getting beer or sake in bottles and pouring a glass for each other. afaik, bar food most western places, even if it's good, is ordered for yourself and so way less social
hattmall 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tremere 3y ago

[flagged]

sho 3y ago
> I see the consumption of alcohol as weak, immature, and reckless I don't drink, at all, ever. I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that it's been the cause of far more problems than it's ever solved, and it's just better for everyone if I never pick up a glass again. That said, I know plenty of people who somehow do have that chip installed that allows responsible drinking, in moderation, in appropriate settings - and I would never be so judgemental as your quote. There do exist plenty of people who can drink in moderation and without any real negative consequences. Who am I to begrudge or look down on that, and indeed who are you to? There's certainly a lot of people for whom alcohol consumption, knowing all the facts, would indeed be "weak, immature, and reckless". Knowing myself and my history, that list includes me! But there's plenty of people not on that list, and so I just don't think you can make blanket judgements like that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

fzeroracer 3y ago

I think it's less about alcohol and more about how individual cultures and society evolve and create third places. Alcohol can be part of that (such as in pubs or even Romans having engaged in a bit of drinking at the bathhouse) but you also had examples like coffee houses in the 17th century. I think the problem arises when the amount of third places available narrows to strictly a culture around drinking, which increasingly becomes the focus rather than the social aspect.

wslh 3y ago

Isn't this obvious? Coffee and drugs either. Even if drugs were harmless for the health they could probably be prohibited because of the sudden changes a society will experience.

datavirtue 3y ago

Now drinking is healing. Oh, brother.

euroderf 3y ago
Taking "beer is liquid bread" to the next level.

Dracophoenix 3y ago

> A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships. Which anime?

StefanBatory 3y ago
I believe it's Frieren. Quite good one, actually.
- yurishimo 3y ago
  The episode with the red headed kid having flashbacks about the ice cream? I didn’t quite have the same takeaway but I suppose that’s one way to look at it. It is an excellent anime however. I suspect it will go down as one of the best anime’s of this decade. Story is great, premise is great, and now at the current episodes, the fighting animation is getting some more love as well. I’m hyped for how it will eventually wrap up!

Log_out_ 3y ago

As everyone is forced to lower their guard, people get to really know one another..