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I can't see how any of this can really be all that good. Sure they might be able to whip up a quick ruby script and write some OOP code. Is that all the value a

I can't see how any of this can really be all that good. Sure they might be able to whip up a quick ruby script and write some OOP code. Is that all the value a programmer is? I think not. Higher education teaches you about how computers work. I've taken classes on the fundamentals of computers, from the lowest level (transistors) to writing programs in machine language, assembly & C. I understand how using a set of logically complete instructions, I can build ANY computer system. From there I understand how C, and C++ works and I've gotten massive dose of Java, OOP, Polymorphism, inheritance, abstraction, recursion, memory management, heaps, stack, memory allocation, algorithms, analysis of algorithms, and not to mention 2.5 years of continual programming experience both through academic work and internships. Next semester I'll be learning about Mobile application development, more on C++, Operating Systems, threading and multicore application development. Just a small snapshot of what it takes to become a great programmer. These "code schools" are great for one thing. Wasting money. These classes cannot replace the rigor of my education; especially when working 25 hours a week and going to school full-time, taking classes that require minimum 15 hours each of homework outside of class. Soon these companies will see how they have wasted money on recruiting the top "code monkeys" instead of recruiting real Computer Scientists. #end rant

damian2000 14y ago
You have to look at the outcomes though - these guys now have jobs and will be working alongside people who studied for 3+ years to get to the same place ... that's fairly incredible. I don't want to demean a degree in any way (I have one in CS myself), but in the end how many CS grads end up programming in just a couple of languages in one or two platforms during their first job? - most.
- snow_mac 14y ago
  But the value of the education isn't just the job you get at the end. These are Ruby job's we're talking about. That's really not that incredible considering quite a large number of people in our fields don't have degrees. The value of a CS degree will pay off far from the first job you get.
  - DomKM 14y ago
    Not everyone is looking to become a computer scientist. Some people just want to make things. Musicians don't need to know every little detail about how their instruments are made. Painters don't need to know the process by which canvas is produced. Why should beginner programmers need to know everything that underlies their craft?
    - snow_mac 14y ago
      Because programming is different from painting or music. Programming is a skill that's through understanding of systems and how they work. Sure you can build something small with basics skills, but beyond that you need understanding. It takes knowledge and understanding on why your code is performing slow, knowing how memory works, knowing how activation records get built. Yes you can build basic stuff with these basic skills but to be a truly wonderful and competent programmer you need to understand the system and your responsibilities.
lobati 14y ago
You seem to be operating on the assumption that the hiring companies are just "trusting" that we put out good students, when in fact they each have their own rigorous interview processes designed to weed out people who have just read the books from those who actually have the ability to think and solve ambiguous or complicated problems, as well as who have the curiosity and passion to continue their education. At my previous jobs I interviewed quite a few potential hires and didn't find a great deal of correlation between having a degree in CS and their fitness for the position. In fact, those who taught themselves tended to need a lot less ramp-up and hand holding than hires straight out of undergrad--the knowledge sticks a lot better when applied to real world projects. At DBC we're not just a bunch of opportunists trying to make a quick buck. We're people with advanced degrees in CS and educators who believe that education can be done better, at least when it comes to engineering, and we aim to prove it. We choose students who are eager to make a career switch and who have the right attitude for growth. Zed's right--these people would be successful on their own, but we're giving them a leg up by helping them to make it happen in a few weeks instead of a few years. We're not just training a bunch of script monkeys. We're ramping passionate people up on the tools commonly used in a modern web-based company, as well as giving them the mental resources to solve messy problems and to continue their education once they leave. Not to mention a strong sense of the community they are joining and where they can contribute. They won't be experts, by any means, but they'll be ready to carry their weight as entry-level engineers.

damian2000 14y ago

You have to look at the outcomes though - these guys now have jobs and will be working alongside people who studied for 3+ years to get to the same place ... that's fairly incredible. I don't want to demean a degree in any way (I have one in CS myself), but in the end how many CS grads end up programming in just a couple of languages in one or two platforms during their first job? - most.

snow_mac 14y ago
But the value of the education isn't just the job you get at the end. These are Ruby job's we're talking about. That's really not that incredible considering quite a large number of people in our fields don't have degrees. The value of a CS degree will pay off far from the first job you get.
- DomKM 14y ago
  Not everyone is looking to become a computer scientist. Some people just want to make things. Musicians don't need to know every little detail about how their instruments are made. Painters don't need to know the process by which canvas is produced. Why should beginner programmers need to know everything that underlies their craft?
  - snow_mac 14y ago
    Because programming is different from painting or music. Programming is a skill that's through understanding of systems and how they work. Sure you can build something small with basics skills, but beyond that you need understanding. It takes knowledge and understanding on why your code is performing slow, knowing how memory works, knowing how activation records get built. Yes you can build basic stuff with these basic skills but to be a truly wonderful and competent programmer you need to understand the system and your responsibilities.

lobati 14y ago

You seem to be operating on the assumption that the hiring companies are just "trusting" that we put out good students, when in fact they each have their own rigorous interview processes designed to weed out people who have just read the books from those who actually have the ability to think and solve ambiguous or complicated problems, as well as who have the curiosity and passion to continue their education. At my previous jobs I interviewed quite a few potential hires and didn't find a great deal of correlation between having a degree in CS and their fitness for the position. In fact, those who taught themselves tended to need a lot less ramp-up and hand holding than hires straight out of undergrad--the knowledge sticks a lot better when applied to real world projects. At DBC we're not just a bunch of opportunists trying to make a quick buck. We're people with advanced degrees in CS and educators who believe that education can be done better, at least when it comes to engineering, and we aim to prove it. We choose students who are eager to make a career switch and who have the right attitude for growth. Zed's right--these people would be successful on their own, but we're giving them a leg up by helping them to make it happen in a few weeks instead of a few years. We're not just training a bunch of script monkeys. We're ramping passionate people up on the tools commonly used in a modern web-based company, as well as giving them the mental resources to solve messy problems and to continue their education once they leave. Not to mention a strong sense of the community they are joining and where they can contribute. They won't be experts, by any means, but they'll be ready to carry their weight as entry-level engineers.