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I've heard it say that Ireland isn't particularly keen on NI mainly for economic reasons. It would prove a drain and a burden. Also many in the North would lo

I've heard it say that Ireland isn't particularly keen on NI mainly for economic reasons. It would prove a drain and a burden. Also many in the North would lose out on certain social and economic benefits (certain healthcare costs for example). It seems these facts are stronger than the ideals of unification. These social and economic factors real and imagined (and magnified and played upon!) during the Brexit referendum played the key part, and thus it was that Northern Ireland voted for the UK to remain in the EU, not for themselves. I've also heard it say that the old school nationalists feel unsupported. The major Irish historically nationalist party is seen to be almost compromised as they are pro immigration and open borders where historically they were more, well .... nationalist! Indeed that's a challenge of all nationalist parties across Europe who campaign for independence seen in Catalonia for example. Should a nationalist seeking independence be pro Europe at the expense of their own nation?

hkpack 3y ago
> Should a nationalist seeking independence be pro Europe at the expense of their own nation? It is interesting, that from my point of view, what you're talking about has even no sense. What does "at the expense of their own nation" even mean? Do you mean that any "nationalist" government means isolationism? Have you confused nationalism with nazism? How you equalise immigration and occupation in one sentence is also interesting.
- thinkingemote 3y ago
  [edited to make it shorter] There has been a change. The traditional supporters of reunification are outdated. The original Irish nationalists would not want a weaker national identity but a stronger one through unification. I've heard that the older supporters feel that something has been compromised. I'm not saying older supporters are racist - rather that the ideals they have of an Irish people and nationhood are not being promoted by their previous political champions. The people hold outdated views. Newer adopted ideals of immigration and open borders are perceived to be more important than campaigning with these older ideals for reunification which many consider to be at odds with each other in some ways. My impression is that their old views are comfortably dissolving away than being actively or angrily being fought for which leads to less enthusiasm about the issue. The notion of what Ireland is to them is less important now. They have more peace with a corresponding weakening of the Cause. Many modern people today consider the very notion of national identity as outdated and troublesome. From Ukraine to Palestine, its based on the thorny issue of nation and people. The Troubles were based on the issue of nation and people.
  - khokhol 3y ago
    [dead]
    - dang 3y ago
      Trollish usernames aren't allowed on HN, so I've banned this account. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Also, it's not allowed to use HN primarily for political battle, which you've been doing, so there's that as well. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - khokhol 3y ago
        You've got a lot of very confused, misinformed people on this site, Dan -- and that's assuming the very best of intent. If patiently correcting them is considered "battle" then I guess we live in different universes.
        dang 3y ago
        Yes, the world is full of the confused and misinformed, and commenters here need to follow HN's rules.
  - hkpack 3y ago
    I think you're just using terms loosely. Also I think Wikipedia article on nationalism is pretty good and should remove any confusion. In my opinion there is nothing outdated in the term "nation". Also, if you're from the US, you need to understand that Europe is very diverse, and there are a lot of nuances. In the topic of our discussion - nationalism in countries which were colonies or under control of a "perceived" foreign state for a long time are pro-independence from that state first, and their flavour of nationalism is very different than in the ones which were historically "colonisers" themselves. As an example, you can see that a lot of people which voted for Wales independence, were actually pro-EU, and Brexit actually increased the amount of people in Wales who wanted independence. So Welsh nationalism is very different than British nationalism, however the territories and people can intersect. So there should be no surprise that Irish nationalism is about governing Ireland independent from UK first, and can be pro-EU, especially, when British nationalists can be against-EU (which may not be the case in reality or not uniformly). Any national government tries to rule based on the values of their people. And these values can differ from one territory to another. Also, speaking of Ireland you need to account that almost half of the Ireland population emigrated because of different hardships in the last century, so it is difficult for a county to have isolationism values when its population values moving to different countries as well. > Most of the troubles we see across the world from Ukraine to Palestine are based on the thorny issue of nation and people. I cannot speak about Israel-Pelestine conflict, but living in Ukraine I can assure you that you are very wrong here. There is zero issue with the question of nation and nationalism related to this conflict.
kckebskal 3y ago
My understanding is that Irish nationalism (as with many nationalist independence movements) are actually pretty left wing and do not share the characteristics of what we would traditionally consider nationalism. C.f. Many nationalist movements in Africa
biorach 3y ago
> I've also heard it say that the old school nationalists feel unsupported. The major Irish historically nationalist party is seen to be almost compromised as they are pro immigration and open borders where historically they were more, well .... nationalist That's quite inaccurate. The Nationalist movement in the context of Northern Ireland has fundamental differences from "Nationalist" movements elsewhere in Europe, to the point where the name is somewhat misleading to outsiders. Ideologically they were until recently a left-wing liberation movement. You may dispute the honesty or validity of that, but that was the basis of their politics. These days things are changing, of course, but still, your mention of immigration and borders is, while relevant, not based on a good understanding of the dynamics of the various movements in contemporary Irish politics.
- thinkingemote 3y ago
  Thank you. Sorry to have confused matters with the usual right wing nationalist associations. My intention was to highlight how the ideas and beliefs of nation and people (or tribe/group identity) towards unification have been challenged in modern times. For the better I might add in that it increases peace.
jowea 3y ago
I suspect the EU is actually what makes separatism viable. Without the EU and related treaties you'd suddenly have a hard border across a previously united country with all the social and economic consequences we have seen in the partition of India or Austria-Hungary.
cykros 3y ago
I'd wondered a bit about this. Hard to be all that excited as a nationalist when you participate in the EU. It's more about which non-Irish authority you're looking to bow to; Brussels or London. Biggest benefit to reunification would seem to be that NI would be able to draw in more companies who may be seeking the lower tax rate, which could help the local economy a bit more. That, and rejoining the single market, for however long the EU manages to hang on for.
imbnwa 3y ago
Only England was stupid enough to depart from the European Union. Catalonian separatists were actually expecting support from the EU, they had zero intention of not being an EU member state.

hkpack 3y ago

> Should a nationalist seeking independence be pro Europe at the expense of their own nation? It is interesting, that from my point of view, what you're talking about has even no sense. What does "at the expense of their own nation" even mean? Do you mean that any "nationalist" government means isolationism? Have you confused nationalism with nazism? How you equalise immigration and occupation in one sentence is also interesting.

thinkingemote 3y ago
[edited to make it shorter] There has been a change. The traditional supporters of reunification are outdated. The original Irish nationalists would not want a weaker national identity but a stronger one through unification. I've heard that the older supporters feel that something has been compromised. I'm not saying older supporters are racist - rather that the ideals they have of an Irish people and nationhood are not being promoted by their previous political champions. The people hold outdated views. Newer adopted ideals of immigration and open borders are perceived to be more important than campaigning with these older ideals for reunification which many consider to be at odds with each other in some ways. My impression is that their old views are comfortably dissolving away than being actively or angrily being fought for which leads to less enthusiasm about the issue. The notion of what Ireland is to them is less important now. They have more peace with a corresponding weakening of the Cause. Many modern people today consider the very notion of national identity as outdated and troublesome. From Ukraine to Palestine, its based on the thorny issue of nation and people. The Troubles were based on the issue of nation and people.
- khokhol 3y ago
  [dead]
  - dang 3y ago
    Trollish usernames aren't allowed on HN, so I've banned this account. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20trollish%20username https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Also, it's not allowed to use HN primarily for political battle, which you've been doing, so there's that as well. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - khokhol 3y ago
      You've got a lot of very confused, misinformed people on this site, Dan -- and that's assuming the very best of intent. If patiently correcting them is considered "battle" then I guess we live in different universes.
      - dang 3y ago
        Yes, the world is full of the confused and misinformed, and commenters here need to follow HN's rules.
- hkpack 3y ago
  I think you're just using terms loosely. Also I think Wikipedia article on nationalism is pretty good and should remove any confusion. In my opinion there is nothing outdated in the term "nation". Also, if you're from the US, you need to understand that Europe is very diverse, and there are a lot of nuances. In the topic of our discussion - nationalism in countries which were colonies or under control of a "perceived" foreign state for a long time are pro-independence from that state first, and their flavour of nationalism is very different than in the ones which were historically "colonisers" themselves. As an example, you can see that a lot of people which voted for Wales independence, were actually pro-EU, and Brexit actually increased the amount of people in Wales who wanted independence. So Welsh nationalism is very different than British nationalism, however the territories and people can intersect. So there should be no surprise that Irish nationalism is about governing Ireland independent from UK first, and can be pro-EU, especially, when British nationalists can be against-EU (which may not be the case in reality or not uniformly). Any national government tries to rule based on the values of their people. And these values can differ from one territory to another. Also, speaking of Ireland you need to account that almost half of the Ireland population emigrated because of different hardships in the last century, so it is difficult for a county to have isolationism values when its population values moving to different countries as well. > Most of the troubles we see across the world from Ukraine to Palestine are based on the thorny issue of nation and people. I cannot speak about Israel-Pelestine conflict, but living in Ukraine I can assure you that you are very wrong here. There is zero issue with the question of nation and nationalism related to this conflict.

kckebskal 3y ago

My understanding is that Irish nationalism (as with many nationalist independence movements) are actually pretty left wing and do not share the characteristics of what we would traditionally consider nationalism. C.f. Many nationalist movements in Africa

biorach 3y ago

> I've also heard it say that the old school nationalists feel unsupported. The major Irish historically nationalist party is seen to be almost compromised as they are pro immigration and open borders where historically they were more, well .... nationalist That's quite inaccurate. The Nationalist movement in the context of Northern Ireland has fundamental differences from "Nationalist" movements elsewhere in Europe, to the point where the name is somewhat misleading to outsiders. Ideologically they were until recently a left-wing liberation movement. You may dispute the honesty or validity of that, but that was the basis of their politics. These days things are changing, of course, but still, your mention of immigration and borders is, while relevant, not based on a good understanding of the dynamics of the various movements in contemporary Irish politics.

thinkingemote 3y ago
Thank you. Sorry to have confused matters with the usual right wing nationalist associations. My intention was to highlight how the ideas and beliefs of nation and people (or tribe/group identity) towards unification have been challenged in modern times. For the better I might add in that it increases peace.

jowea 3y ago

I suspect the EU is actually what makes separatism viable. Without the EU and related treaties you'd suddenly have a hard border across a previously united country with all the social and economic consequences we have seen in the partition of India or Austria-Hungary.

cykros 3y ago

I'd wondered a bit about this. Hard to be all that excited as a nationalist when you participate in the EU. It's more about which non-Irish authority you're looking to bow to; Brussels or London. Biggest benefit to reunification would seem to be that NI would be able to draw in more companies who may be seeking the lower tax rate, which could help the local economy a bit more. That, and rejoining the single market, for however long the EU manages to hang on for.

imbnwa 3y ago

Only England was stupid enough to depart from the European Union. Catalonian separatists were actually expecting support from the EU, they had zero intention of not being an EU member state.