5 ms·

Embarrassing that the West can't protect these people. It tells me that the Russians infiltrated a lot.

namaria 3y ago
Who is this 'the West' and how would you expect it to monitor and protect millions of Russians amongst billions of people in hundreds of countries?
- pestatije 3y ago
  theres border control for a reason...if foreign hitmen can get into the country, kill someone, and get away with it, whats the point of border control?
  - tonis2 3y ago
    Could of easily have been a local hitman
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 3y ago
    > whats the point of border control? Harassment of ordinary people for the sake of security theatre.
    - pestatije 3y ago
      thats what im saying...all those d***heads throwing away my perfectly legal shower gel without even looking, they should be ashamed of themselves this is happening
      - kazinator 3y ago
        I went on a business trip to China some decade ago. On the way back, at the Shanghai airport, I forgot that I had an entire unopened tub of yogurt in my carry on. The security screening attendant just waved that through, like they don't give a damn. All that hoopla about liquids on planes originates from America. 9/11 didn't happen in China, so they probably think it's just some foreign bullshit they have to implement, which they do half-assedly.
    - falcor84 3y ago
      Not even security theatre, but maybe just mere nationalism/jingoism - countries create border controls to create a clearer "us vs them" mentality
  - throwaway118899 3y ago
    Border control catching every hitman with the backing of an entire country… You need to stop watching CSI shows buddy.
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    Border control is for plebs. Intelligence services can forge passports and use that to get in[1]. The way to stop assassinations is counter-intelligence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israeli-envoy-quit-embassy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israel...
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  "the West" is normally understood to be a certain collection of governments, people, ideas, and institutions. The police of Spain and Spanish intelligence would be included here. They should've made sure that the defected soldier could, if he wanted, remain totally anonymous.
  - namaria 3y ago
    The Spanish government is optimized to win elections in Spain, not to secure foreign operators who appear to have defected from selected countries. This sort of armchair security policy analysis skips over reams of complexity for the sake of shaking fingers at single events that get published. The intelligence operations that succeed don't get published. If we decry western incompetence at each apparent Russian assassination, the FSB is achieving its goals.
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      Also, why do these guys always go to Russian enclave and tourist sea side towns? It is very easy to disappear in Spain, but not in the type of places where he was killed. If you want to flee from something, you go throw a dart somewhere under or above Madrid, far from the sea. No one wants to be there, there are no Russians and the post office cannot find you so you don’t even get mail IF you register there (which you wouldn’t if you are trying to hide). For some reason people go to Marbella, or other well known mainland coastal places or, of course, Ibiza. Good for vacation (if you enjoy that type of thing), but how is it smart for disappearing of the fsb grasp.
      - namaria 3y ago
        Southern Spain is Russian organized crime playground. There are probably a lot of connections available there for all kinds of operators from Russia.
        anonzzzies 3y ago
        Exactly. So if you are trying to get away from the Kremlin, you wouldn't go there. And yet, he did.
- simonblack 3y ago
  'The West' is the collection of countries comprising "The Anglophone Five Eyes", Europe and Japan as an honorary addition. What other name would you use for this bunch of people? "The West" has become the normal accepted term over the last few decades.
  - namaria 3y ago
    The BRICS is also a well defined group of nations that has little in common besides some investment banker report from how their economies correlated in the early 2000s and bureaucratic plans for mutual currency swap. Naming groups of things doesn't make them a coherent whole.
calgoo 3y ago
Europe is basically open boarders internally. So once you pass an external boarder you almost have free passage. This is a good thing. You won’t be able to stop people like this that are state backed even if you wanted to unless they mess up and do something stupid. There is also a rather large presence of Eastern European organized crime that would happily take a paycheck or other favors from Russia.
- VK538FY 3y ago
  You say that it's a good thing but your examples suggest the contrary.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    It's good because you can move to live and work anywhere in Europe. It makes your serfdom in modern technofeudalism less geographically restricted. Makes you more free for some definitions of "free".
    - bionsystem 3y ago
      Very few people actually do that, and the downside of open borders is enormous.
      - scotty79 3y ago
        There are other benefits like trade and cross-border business opportunities without unnecessary impediments.
    - Baguette5242 3y ago
      You mustn’t have moved from an EU country to another. Being an EU citizen, I drank the cool-aid about the freedom of move and work in any EU country, but the reality being that there are so many cultural, linguistic, administrative, legislative (and other) differences between a country to another that the overall experience is painful and except for very high incentives (big salary increase) the experience is not great. I struggled less to relocate from France to China than I did to relocate from France to Germany. Like everything in Europe, on paper it’s good, in reality, it’s often mediocre. Sad thing.
mdhb 3y ago
I don’t have any insight on this particular case but I do happen to know a meaningful amount about how things like this tend to happen historically and there’s no reason to think differently here. He almost certainly tried to get back in touch with friends and family who would have been under surveillance and they were able to pin him down to a specific location from there. From that point onwards the rest of what comes next isn’t particularly difficult to pull off.
- A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
  Right. When you're on the run, as he should have been: Step One: You have to absolutely break all contact with your past. That's the first step. Family, friends, bank accounts, old email accounts, everything. (And, needless to say, if you're Russian and are trying to escape Russian agents, the last thing you do is hang out in Russian enclaves. So you break with your culture, as well, to the fullest extent possible.) Step Two: You have to change your appearance; if you were clean-shaven and had long hair, you go bald and grow as much facial hair as you can comfortably manage; if possible you get some plastic surgery done; if you had tattoos, you remove them or discreetly cover them with new ink, no matter where they are. Step Three: You go to a big city of 500k+ residents and work cash jobs-- dishwasher, line cook, nightclub bouncer, delivery driver, construction crew, etc. -- the possibilities are vast. If you're sitting on a cash reserve, don't work and try to make some money investing. Step Four: No heavy drinking, and no drugs that might get you arrested and lead to a paper trail. Do all that and you might live a normal lifespan. This playbook is how quite a lot of fugitives managed to get away with it, including, until quite recently and famously, this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kirishima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kirishima
  - xetplan 3y ago
    Even if you do this, a state backed intelligence agency is going to eventually find you if they keep trying. The idea "the west" can protect any single person from a state backed intelligence agency set on eliminating that person is totally delusional. I would question what is going on in a person's head to believe this is even possible. Maybe if we incarcerated the individual under a fake name then put that individual in solitary confinement for life, this would work!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
userabchn 3y ago
More infiltration: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-investigates-russian-reports-recorded-german-military-officials-2024-03-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-investigates-ru...
throwaway118899 3y ago
Who are these people, and why should I, part of the west, give a single shit about Russians running from the problems of their own country?
- bamboozled 3y ago
  Because they’re often, not always trying to help the west / you ?
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  Because it’s the right thing to do? When people are being assassinated in beach towns in Spain, society should do something. The people being assassinated, according to the article, are Russians who decided they don’t support Russia. “Running from the problems of their own country” is a time honored tradition of “The West”, according to every American elementary school curriculum explaining the founding of America. The west claims to be enlightened lands of the free, so people who are part of the west, should be open to sharing that freedom with those who seek it, and protect them from those who seek to shut out freedom.
- m_fayer 3y ago
  National pride? What kind of nation allows another nation to spectacularly violate the most fundamental of their laws, deep in the homeland, with laughing impunity?
- aaron695 3y ago
  [dead]
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  Russians running away from problems in their country are assets to the west. One of the things that makes the west great is its respect for individual freedom. At some level Russians know this: just compare the numbers of Russians trying to move to the West, compared to the numbers of westerns moving to Russia. We're better, and their population knows it en mass. So from a selfish point of view, it's in our interest to live up to this image. If a Russian says: I refuse to take part in Russia's aggression towards the West, we definitely should treat them extra well. Also consider that another thing that makes the West great is its respect for rule of law. People who are in the west should have the right to walk down the street without fear of being assassinated, regardless of who they are or where they come from; this is a western value that I prize very much. If you start allowing "I don't care if a person gets illegally killed in Spain because he's a bad guy anyway", you're eroding the power of the West. And finally, the problem that the west needs to counter act aren't just individuals of specific nationalities: it's an aggressive state and its institutions that have as stated goal to weaken us. Let me know if you have more questions. As long as they're in good faith I'm happy to continue discussing.
dzhiurgis 3y ago
Embarrassing west fails to protect the data of such people.
- pydry 3y ago
  Embarrassing that the west failed to protect Gonzalo Lira from a similar fate in Ukraine. It's more embarrassing to become like Russia than to not be able to stop them. The people who respond that no big deal he ended up dead because he had Bad Views because he voiced propaganda from the other side are not disproving, but rather underscoring this point.
A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
> "Kuzminov opted for the Mediterranean town of Villajoyosa, population 36,000, including more than 800 registered residents from Russia. His home in exile was the ninth floor of a four-tower condominium cluster overlooking the beach, most of its tenants foreigners, the building manager said. A placard by the entrance extended a measure of confidence: “Facilities monitored by video cameras and security personnel.” In smaller print below read doorbell-ringing instructions, written in Spanish, English and Russian. > "Along the street, Russian expatriates prayed at the nearby Orthodox church and shopped for groceries at a store named Baltica. The coastline had a reputation for Russian organized crime." This guy wasn't even trying. He obviously didn't think that the threat was real.

Who is this 'the West' and how would you expect it to monitor and protect millions of Russians amongst billions of people in hundreds of countries?

pestatije 3y ago
theres border control for a reason...if foreign hitmen can get into the country, kill someone, and get away with it, whats the point of border control?
- tonis2 3y ago
  Could of easily have been a local hitman
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 3y ago
  > whats the point of border control? Harassment of ordinary people for the sake of security theatre.
  - pestatije 3y ago
    thats what im saying...all those d***heads throwing away my perfectly legal shower gel without even looking, they should be ashamed of themselves this is happening
    - kazinator 3y ago
      I went on a business trip to China some decade ago. On the way back, at the Shanghai airport, I forgot that I had an entire unopened tub of yogurt in my carry on. The security screening attendant just waved that through, like they don't give a damn. All that hoopla about liquids on planes originates from America. 9/11 didn't happen in China, so they probably think it's just some foreign bullshit they have to implement, which they do half-assedly.
  - falcor84 3y ago
    Not even security theatre, but maybe just mere nationalism/jingoism - countries create border controls to create a clearer "us vs them" mentality
- throwaway118899 3y ago
  Border control catching every hitman with the backing of an entire country… You need to stop watching CSI shows buddy.
- hackerlight 3y ago
  Border control is for plebs. Intelligence services can forge passports and use that to get in[1]. The way to stop assassinations is counter-intelligence. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israeli-envoy-quit-embassy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/15/ireland-israel...
bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
"the West" is normally understood to be a certain collection of governments, people, ideas, and institutions. The police of Spain and Spanish intelligence would be included here. They should've made sure that the defected soldier could, if he wanted, remain totally anonymous.
- namaria 3y ago
  The Spanish government is optimized to win elections in Spain, not to secure foreign operators who appear to have defected from selected countries. This sort of armchair security policy analysis skips over reams of complexity for the sake of shaking fingers at single events that get published. The intelligence operations that succeed don't get published. If we decry western incompetence at each apparent Russian assassination, the FSB is achieving its goals.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    Also, why do these guys always go to Russian enclave and tourist sea side towns? It is very easy to disappear in Spain, but not in the type of places where he was killed. If you want to flee from something, you go throw a dart somewhere under or above Madrid, far from the sea. No one wants to be there, there are no Russians and the post office cannot find you so you don’t even get mail IF you register there (which you wouldn’t if you are trying to hide). For some reason people go to Marbella, or other well known mainland coastal places or, of course, Ibiza. Good for vacation (if you enjoy that type of thing), but how is it smart for disappearing of the fsb grasp.
    - namaria 3y ago
      Southern Spain is Russian organized crime playground. There are probably a lot of connections available there for all kinds of operators from Russia.
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        Exactly. So if you are trying to get away from the Kremlin, you wouldn't go there. And yet, he did.
simonblack 3y ago
'The West' is the collection of countries comprising "The Anglophone Five Eyes", Europe and Japan as an honorary addition. What other name would you use for this bunch of people? "The West" has become the normal accepted term over the last few decades.
- namaria 3y ago
  The BRICS is also a well defined group of nations that has little in common besides some investment banker report from how their economies correlated in the early 2000s and bureaucratic plans for mutual currency swap. Naming groups of things doesn't make them a coherent whole.

calgoo 3y ago

Europe is basically open boarders internally. So once you pass an external boarder you almost have free passage. This is a good thing. You won’t be able to stop people like this that are state backed even if you wanted to unless they mess up and do something stupid. There is also a rather large presence of Eastern European organized crime that would happily take a paycheck or other favors from Russia.

VK538FY 3y ago
You say that it's a good thing but your examples suggest the contrary.
- scotty79 3y ago
  It's good because you can move to live and work anywhere in Europe. It makes your serfdom in modern technofeudalism less geographically restricted. Makes you more free for some definitions of "free".
  - bionsystem 3y ago
    Very few people actually do that, and the downside of open borders is enormous.
    - scotty79 3y ago
      There are other benefits like trade and cross-border business opportunities without unnecessary impediments.
  - Baguette5242 3y ago
    You mustn’t have moved from an EU country to another. Being an EU citizen, I drank the cool-aid about the freedom of move and work in any EU country, but the reality being that there are so many cultural, linguistic, administrative, legislative (and other) differences between a country to another that the overall experience is painful and except for very high incentives (big salary increase) the experience is not great. I struggled less to relocate from France to China than I did to relocate from France to Germany. Like everything in Europe, on paper it’s good, in reality, it’s often mediocre. Sad thing.

mdhb 3y ago

I don’t have any insight on this particular case but I do happen to know a meaningful amount about how things like this tend to happen historically and there’s no reason to think differently here. He almost certainly tried to get back in touch with friends and family who would have been under surveillance and they were able to pin him down to a specific location from there. From that point onwards the rest of what comes next isn’t particularly difficult to pull off.

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
Right. When you're on the run, as he should have been: Step One: You have to absolutely break all contact with your past. That's the first step. Family, friends, bank accounts, old email accounts, everything. (And, needless to say, if you're Russian and are trying to escape Russian agents, the last thing you do is hang out in Russian enclaves. So you break with your culture, as well, to the fullest extent possible.) Step Two: You have to change your appearance; if you were clean-shaven and had long hair, you go bald and grow as much facial hair as you can comfortably manage; if possible you get some plastic surgery done; if you had tattoos, you remove them or discreetly cover them with new ink, no matter where they are. Step Three: You go to a big city of 500k+ residents and work cash jobs-- dishwasher, line cook, nightclub bouncer, delivery driver, construction crew, etc. -- the possibilities are vast. If you're sitting on a cash reserve, don't work and try to make some money investing. Step Four: No heavy drinking, and no drugs that might get you arrested and lead to a paper trail. Do all that and you might live a normal lifespan. This playbook is how quite a lot of fugitives managed to get away with it, including, until quite recently and famously, this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kirishima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kirishima
- xetplan 3y ago
  Even if you do this, a state backed intelligence agency is going to eventually find you if they keep trying. The idea "the west" can protect any single person from a state backed intelligence agency set on eliminating that person is totally delusional. I would question what is going on in a person's head to believe this is even possible. Maybe if we incarcerated the individual under a fake name then put that individual in solitary confinement for life, this would work!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

userabchn 3y ago

More infiltration: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-investigates-russian-reports-recorded-german-military-officials-2024-03-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-investigates-ru...

throwaway118899 3y ago

Who are these people, and why should I, part of the west, give a single shit about Russians running from the problems of their own country?

bamboozled 3y ago
Because they’re often, not always trying to help the west / you ?
vineyardmike 3y ago
Because it’s the right thing to do? When people are being assassinated in beach towns in Spain, society should do something. The people being assassinated, according to the article, are Russians who decided they don’t support Russia. “Running from the problems of their own country” is a time honored tradition of “The West”, according to every American elementary school curriculum explaining the founding of America. The west claims to be enlightened lands of the free, so people who are part of the west, should be open to sharing that freedom with those who seek it, and protect them from those who seek to shut out freedom.
m_fayer 3y ago
National pride? What kind of nation allows another nation to spectacularly violate the most fundamental of their laws, deep in the homeland, with laughing impunity?
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
Russians running away from problems in their country are assets to the west. One of the things that makes the west great is its respect for individual freedom. At some level Russians know this: just compare the numbers of Russians trying to move to the West, compared to the numbers of westerns moving to Russia. We're better, and their population knows it en mass. So from a selfish point of view, it's in our interest to live up to this image. If a Russian says: I refuse to take part in Russia's aggression towards the West, we definitely should treat them extra well. Also consider that another thing that makes the West great is its respect for rule of law. People who are in the west should have the right to walk down the street without fear of being assassinated, regardless of who they are or where they come from; this is a western value that I prize very much. If you start allowing "I don't care if a person gets illegally killed in Spain because he's a bad guy anyway", you're eroding the power of the West. And finally, the problem that the west needs to counter act aren't just individuals of specific nationalities: it's an aggressive state and its institutions that have as stated goal to weaken us. Let me know if you have more questions. As long as they're in good faith I'm happy to continue discussing.

dzhiurgis 3y ago

Embarrassing west fails to protect the data of such people.

pydry 3y ago
Embarrassing that the west failed to protect Gonzalo Lira from a similar fate in Ukraine. It's more embarrassing to become like Russia than to not be able to stop them. The people who respond that no big deal he ended up dead because he had Bad Views because he voiced propaganda from the other side are not disproving, but rather underscoring this point.

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago

> "Kuzminov opted for the Mediterranean town of Villajoyosa, population 36,000, including more than 800 registered residents from Russia. His home in exile was the ninth floor of a four-tower condominium cluster overlooking the beach, most of its tenants foreigners, the building manager said. A placard by the entrance extended a measure of confidence: “Facilities monitored by video cameras and security personnel.” In smaller print below read doorbell-ringing instructions, written in Spanish, English and Russian. > "Along the street, Russian expatriates prayed at the nearby Orthodox church and shopped for groceries at a store named Baltica. The coastline had a reputation for Russian organized crime." This guy wasn't even trying. He obviously didn't think that the threat was real.