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They were both wrong. Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. The fact that he forgot is huge. A company that talks

They were both wrong. Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. The fact that he forgot is huge. A company that talks about bonuses of that size with no legal contract didn't care enough about it to start with. The developer will pay with his reputation. Any employer who knows what happened will never fully trust him, except after a long working relationship. Miso will pay by losing potential hires. Each side loses more than 10,000 dollars worth. Justin's professional rep is worth a lot more than 10k, Miso's hiring future is worth more than one bonus. They should have worked this out in private. They couldn't, and they both lost.

veemjeem 14y ago
I think Joshua's rep broke even, or possibly slightly ahead. It shows that he's a passionate employee, and will go out of his way to make things right. In a work setting, he'll probably fix up that copy-pasta code instead of just leaving it there. Passionate employees always win over passive employees. Additionally, his name is so damn generic, it might as well be john lee. There might be 10 serial killers with his name too, but I doubt future employers would really be able pinpoint this incident with his name.
- dkokelley 14y ago
  I doubt that. What you perceive as passion, I perceived as whiny. Whiny as in how a 4 year old REALLY wants a toy when his parents won't buy it for him. Is a child throwing a tantrum passionate about that toy? Is that a good thing? Will this potential employee throw a fit when we don't use the libraries he wants? Probably not (like I would assume of most professionals), but this new found infamy would make me as a recruiting company think twice. I think the situation could and should have been resolved in private. I know there are more clarifying emails, but we don't get to see them. If I were considering hiring this guy, I would be much more comfortable if I could see all of the emails with each side clearly stating their case, and then the developer's calm and rational ultimatum to go to the public. Even then, I would (as a potential employer) be even more comforted if the post itself had a calm and rational voice. (I believe the voice is mixed at best.) I base my claim that this could have been resolved in private on the fact that Miso resolved everything so quickly. If the case and ultimatum were clearly communicated, Miso would have been prepared for the negative PR by releasing their version of events. Instead, the company payed up not even 12 hours after the story is published. This leads me to believe that communication was poor between the parties.
  - catch23 14y ago
    I don't think this could have been handled privately without lawyers. It was clear that Miso did not want to hand over the $10k when asked nicely. This reminds me of the scalding coffee from McDonalds. The woman tried to handle the matter privately, and McDonalds would probably only had to pay a few thousand in medical bills had the fessed up early, but instead they took it to higher courts and got slapped in the face with a million dollar bill. The only reason Miso paid up so quickly is that they're hoping the $10k will keep people from grabbing more pitchforks. If you look at other examples of bad company PR, you'll see that companies tend to react fast when then smell a shit storm coming their way... it has nothing to do with poor communication.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    I would be much more comfortable if I could see all of the emails with each side clearly stating their case, and then the developer's calm and rational ultimatum to go to the public. That's the problem with whistle-blowing. Usually, there's a period of negotiation that occurs before it gets to that point. The situation has been developing for weeks or months and nothing else has worked. Suing is too expensive, so the wronged takes the matter to the public. It can be damaging to the whistle-blower's reputation because, from the perspective of almost all of "the public", it's the first time they're hearing this news. They don't see the months of failed (or even bad-faith) negotiation. It seems like a drastic, hair-trigger decision to expose the matter, because it's the first time they are hearing about it. And people like to kill the messenger and don't like to hear bad news about reputable companies. If the case and ultimatum were clearly communicated, Miso would have been prepared for the negative PR by releasing their version of events. Sounds like a Ned Stark blunder. Experience has taught me that threatening to do something like this is a bad idea-- it gives your adversary time to prepare for it. Don't threaten; just do. If you're in this sort of fight, you want them to be surprised and capitulate in 12 hours. Saying, "this is exactly what I plan to release about you" is a bad idea for several reasons. First, your adversary has time to prepare. Second, it can become illegal (extortion in some cases, although most likely not in this one since there was a pre-existing contractual agreement).
- ansible 14y ago
  Both sides lost reputation to me when they put something into production without backups.
  - jrockway 14y ago
    Programmer: I'm wary about putting this into production without backups. Manager: But we really need to launch today. We'll get backups going next week, I promise. Programmer: OK... gulp. Ultimately, a startup involves taking a lot of calculated risks. Miso decided that the benefits from launching early outweighed the risks from losing data (physical media failures, fat finger, bugs, etc.). They were wrong. They gambled and lost. The successful companies we hear about are the ones that gambled and won.
    - ansible 14y ago
      I've worn a sysadmin hat for many years. You're not supposed to gamble, or take risks of any kind. You are supposed to make sure. To make absolutely sure. The successful companies we hear about did not gamble, in my view. There are plenty of ways we ought to take risks in business, but basic IT practice is not one of them.
zem 14y ago
i fail to see what you are pointing out as untrustworthy on josh's part, let alone what forgetting about the $10k has to do with it.
ww520 14y ago
I don't think the developer paid with his reputation. He actually gains reputation as someone who would stand up to injustice and unethical behavior. Of course unethical employers would hesitate to trust him but do you want to work for unethical employers?
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  He actually gains reputation as someone who would stand up to injustice and unethical behavior. I wish you were right, but you're not. For all the press about the "war for talent", there's never a good time to be a whistle-blower. Sometimes it is worth doing, because these kinds of stories are extremely common (read: there are a lot of bubble startups with shitty, unethical management) right now, but it's generally a risky move. Our perspective: Josh is a hero who exposed a crappy, sloppily-managed startup after the executives moved to deprive him of a promised bonus. Stereotypical HR perspective: Josh is a risk. He exposed an employer's "dirty laundry" over a trivial amount of money and "professionals just don't do that". Oh, and there's this thing about losing data in the last 2 weeks. Sounds like he fucked something up and was fired. Sane, reasonable counterpoints: Josh was right to do what he did, because he probably prevented other people from getting screwed by this company. Also, we have no idea why the database problem occurred. Maybe he was working 14-hour days (it's common for shitbag startups to push people to put in 80 hours per week, and later use the low quality-- on account of the overtime and deadline pressure-- of what is produced as justification for canning them once the equity is worth something). Maybe he was badly trained. Who knows? It's just as likely that it's not his fault, and regarding the manner of his termination, who cares? Not-unreasonable (but unfortunate) HR counterpoint: Sure, sure, but he's still riskier than this other guy who didn't expose an ex-employer and has identical credentials. Of course unethical employers would hesitate to trust him but do you want to work for unethical employers? I don't see this division as being as firm as one might like. Corporate "culture" is largely a fiction. Most companies have a mix of ethical and unethical people. Saying you wouldn't want to work for a 100-person company because there's one unethical person (or, for your example, a "sympathizer" with unethical people) in HR is short-sighted. No company is perfect, and if you insist only on working in companies where everyone is ethical and good, well... you'll have a hard time working for companies larger than about 10 people, including your own.
ericb 14y ago
> Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. Or he was working 80 hour weeks and had a lot on his mind. But hey, blame the victim--he had it coming! Come work for me, I will try and stiff you at every turn, and if I manage to, hey you just didn't want it bad enough.
- slantyyz 14y ago
  Oh come on. Anybody who has any amount of experience would have had all of his/her ducks in a row before quitting. They should also know that any company expecting you to work 80 hours a week doesn't have your best interests in mind. You should always work with the assumption that your employer is a douche even though he doesn't act like it. Cynical, yes, but this is a business relationship, and when money is involved, you'll often see the ugly side of people turn up. The original employer is at fault, but this type of behaviour is common, and people, especially young people, need to be aware that your relationship with your employer is not a friendship. It's a business relationship. Limit your trust of them, and make sure you get everything you are owed by them before you quit. When you resign, assume that you'll get walked out, so make sure you've got all of your stuff ready to go. I could go on, but you should get the idea.
felideon 14y ago
> Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. The fact that he forgot is huge. No, it's not huge. As I said in another comment, it's always awkward for me to have to go to a 'manager' and ask for money so I procrastinate on such issues. Maybe it was similar for him.
- silentscope 14y ago
  it's business brother. you're not asking to date his sister. you earned the money, go ask for it. and procrastinating is just fine. but you don't QUIT without getting that kind of dough.

veemjeem 14y ago

I think Joshua's rep broke even, or possibly slightly ahead. It shows that he's a passionate employee, and will go out of his way to make things right. In a work setting, he'll probably fix up that copy-pasta code instead of just leaving it there. Passionate employees always win over passive employees. Additionally, his name is so damn generic, it might as well be john lee. There might be 10 serial killers with his name too, but I doubt future employers would really be able pinpoint this incident with his name.

dkokelley 14y ago
I doubt that. What you perceive as passion, I perceived as whiny. Whiny as in how a 4 year old REALLY wants a toy when his parents won't buy it for him. Is a child throwing a tantrum passionate about that toy? Is that a good thing? Will this potential employee throw a fit when we don't use the libraries he wants? Probably not (like I would assume of most professionals), but this new found infamy would make me as a recruiting company think twice. I think the situation could and should have been resolved in private. I know there are more clarifying emails, but we don't get to see them. If I were considering hiring this guy, I would be much more comfortable if I could see all of the emails with each side clearly stating their case, and then the developer's calm and rational ultimatum to go to the public. Even then, I would (as a potential employer) be even more comforted if the post itself had a calm and rational voice. (I believe the voice is mixed at best.) I base my claim that this could have been resolved in private on the fact that Miso resolved everything so quickly. If the case and ultimatum were clearly communicated, Miso would have been prepared for the negative PR by releasing their version of events. Instead, the company payed up not even 12 hours after the story is published. This leads me to believe that communication was poor between the parties.
- catch23 14y ago
  I don't think this could have been handled privately without lawyers. It was clear that Miso did not want to hand over the $10k when asked nicely. This reminds me of the scalding coffee from McDonalds. The woman tried to handle the matter privately, and McDonalds would probably only had to pay a few thousand in medical bills had the fessed up early, but instead they took it to higher courts and got slapped in the face with a million dollar bill. The only reason Miso paid up so quickly is that they're hoping the $10k will keep people from grabbing more pitchforks. If you look at other examples of bad company PR, you'll see that companies tend to react fast when then smell a shit storm coming their way... it has nothing to do with poor communication.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I would be much more comfortable if I could see all of the emails with each side clearly stating their case, and then the developer's calm and rational ultimatum to go to the public. That's the problem with whistle-blowing. Usually, there's a period of negotiation that occurs before it gets to that point. The situation has been developing for weeks or months and nothing else has worked. Suing is too expensive, so the wronged takes the matter to the public. It can be damaging to the whistle-blower's reputation because, from the perspective of almost all of "the public", it's the first time they're hearing this news. They don't see the months of failed (or even bad-faith) negotiation. It seems like a drastic, hair-trigger decision to expose the matter, because it's the first time they are hearing about it. And people like to kill the messenger and don't like to hear bad news about reputable companies. If the case and ultimatum were clearly communicated, Miso would have been prepared for the negative PR by releasing their version of events. Sounds like a Ned Stark blunder. Experience has taught me that threatening to do something like this is a bad idea-- it gives your adversary time to prepare for it. Don't threaten; just do. If you're in this sort of fight, you want them to be surprised and capitulate in 12 hours. Saying, "this is exactly what I plan to release about you" is a bad idea for several reasons. First, your adversary has time to prepare. Second, it can become illegal (extortion in some cases, although most likely not in this one since there was a pre-existing contractual agreement).
ansible 14y ago
Both sides lost reputation to me when they put something into production without backups.
- jrockway 14y ago
  Programmer: I'm wary about putting this into production without backups. Manager: But we really need to launch today. We'll get backups going next week, I promise. Programmer: OK... gulp. Ultimately, a startup involves taking a lot of calculated risks. Miso decided that the benefits from launching early outweighed the risks from losing data (physical media failures, fat finger, bugs, etc.). They were wrong. They gambled and lost. The successful companies we hear about are the ones that gambled and won.
  - ansible 14y ago
    I've worn a sysadmin hat for many years. You're not supposed to gamble, or take risks of any kind. You are supposed to make sure. To make absolutely sure. The successful companies we hear about did not gamble, in my view. There are plenty of ways we ought to take risks in business, but basic IT practice is not one of them.

zem 14y ago

i fail to see what you are pointing out as untrustworthy on josh's part, let alone what forgetting about the $10k has to do with it.

ww520 14y ago

I don't think the developer paid with his reputation. He actually gains reputation as someone who would stand up to injustice and unethical behavior. Of course unethical employers would hesitate to trust him but do you want to work for unethical employers?

michaelochurch 14y ago
He actually gains reputation as someone who would stand up to injustice and unethical behavior. I wish you were right, but you're not. For all the press about the "war for talent", there's never a good time to be a whistle-blower. Sometimes it is worth doing, because these kinds of stories are extremely common (read: there are a lot of bubble startups with shitty, unethical management) right now, but it's generally a risky move. Our perspective: Josh is a hero who exposed a crappy, sloppily-managed startup after the executives moved to deprive him of a promised bonus. Stereotypical HR perspective: Josh is a risk. He exposed an employer's "dirty laundry" over a trivial amount of money and "professionals just don't do that". Oh, and there's this thing about losing data in the last 2 weeks. Sounds like he fucked something up and was fired. Sane, reasonable counterpoints: Josh was right to do what he did, because he probably prevented other people from getting screwed by this company. Also, we have no idea why the database problem occurred. Maybe he was working 14-hour days (it's common for shitbag startups to push people to put in 80 hours per week, and later use the low quality-- on account of the overtime and deadline pressure-- of what is produced as justification for canning them once the equity is worth something). Maybe he was badly trained. Who knows? It's just as likely that it's not his fault, and regarding the manner of his termination, who cares? Not-unreasonable (but unfortunate) HR counterpoint: Sure, sure, but he's still riskier than this other guy who didn't expose an ex-employer and has identical credentials. Of course unethical employers would hesitate to trust him but do you want to work for unethical employers? I don't see this division as being as firm as one might like. Corporate "culture" is largely a fiction. Most companies have a mix of ethical and unethical people. Saying you wouldn't want to work for a 100-person company because there's one unethical person (or, for your example, a "sympathizer" with unethical people) in HR is short-sighted. No company is perfect, and if you insist only on working in companies where everyone is ethical and good, well... you'll have a hard time working for companies larger than about 10 people, including your own.

ericb 14y ago

> Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. Or he was working 80 hour weeks and had a lot on his mind. But hey, blame the victim--he had it coming! Come work for me, I will try and stiff you at every turn, and if I manage to, hey you just didn't want it bad enough.

slantyyz 14y ago
Oh come on. Anybody who has any amount of experience would have had all of his/her ducks in a row before quitting. They should also know that any company expecting you to work 80 hours a week doesn't have your best interests in mind. You should always work with the assumption that your employer is a douche even though he doesn't act like it. Cynical, yes, but this is a business relationship, and when money is involved, you'll often see the ugly side of people turn up. The original employer is at fault, but this type of behaviour is common, and people, especially young people, need to be aware that your relationship with your employer is not a friendship. It's a business relationship. Limit your trust of them, and make sure you get everything you are owed by them before you quit. When you resign, assume that you'll get walked out, so make sure you've got all of your stuff ready to go. I could go on, but you should get the idea.

felideon 14y ago

> Any employee who leaves 10k behind didn't care enough about it in the first place. The fact that he forgot is huge. No, it's not huge. As I said in another comment, it's always awkward for me to have to go to a 'manager' and ask for money so I procrastinate on such issues. Maybe it was similar for him.

silentscope 14y ago
it's business brother. you're not asking to date his sister. you earned the money, go ask for it. and procrastinating is just fine. but you don't QUIT without getting that kind of dough.