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The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/

The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...

refurb 3y ago
Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?
- trifurcate 3y ago
  > But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
  - refurb 3y ago
    What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
- olliej 3y ago
  The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    By the time the lawsuit against standard oil had concluded, they had lost market share, because price fixing doesnt work in real life, as more than a few industrialists have had to learn the hard way. Rents and mortgages are too high, but you are looking in the wrong place thinking housing costs are high due to price fixing.
    - fireflash38 3y ago
      Do you have some papers to back up the claims that price fixing doesn't work?
      - Geisterde 3y ago
        Sure, I would recommend you start with "basic economics", 5th edition, by thomas sowell.
        ethbr1 3y ago
        Are you speaking in the long term? Because it certainly works over decades-term. Standard still had 70% market share when it was charged, and 64% by the time it was broken up. Over the ~40 years it existed, it was incredibly profitable.
        Geisterde 3y ago
        I submit that the long term issues we are having in the united states, are in fact the result of short term solutions. Also, standard oil controlled more like 90% of the market, so in that context they had lost more like 25% by the time the trial concluded.
        ethbr1 3y ago
        64% is still an incredible pricing and profitability position. Most firms would kill to be in such a situation! Apple has, what, 20% smartphone market share? And look at the margins they're able to run. Granted, boosted by platform lock-in.
jessriedel 3y ago
Are you talking about this?: > One advantage RealPage’s data warehouse had was its access to actual lease transactions — giving it the true rents paid, instead of simply those a landlord advertised, RealPage said. The above quote is the most substantive description of info sharing I could find in the section "Who Uses the Software and How It Work" in the article you linked. Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that?
- stackskipton 3y ago
  >Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that? Companies and people generally do not share this information publicly and most companies consider it extremely proprietary. So yes, that what's these lawsuits are about. All these companies share this extremely sensitive data (Vacancy data, actual rent and length of rental contract) with RealPage, Realpage algorithms use it to price rent.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Another thing the could do with this information is, if one of their customers has to take a bunch of units off the market to refurbish/abate them, it can instantly increase all of the prices for their other customers because it knows the supply just changed.
  - jessriedel 3y ago
    I mean, tenants share this info all the time. I'm not aware of them doing it really systematically anywhere, but I doubt there would be objections if they did. Likewise, no one objects when employees share salary info, anonymously or otherwise, even though employees usually treat this as confidential info.
    - stackskipton 3y ago
      And? This is companies with perfect set of data vs some theory crafted world where everyone individually did it perfectly?

refurb 3y ago

Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?

trifurcate 3y ago
> But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
- refurb 3y ago
  What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
olliej 3y ago
The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
- Geisterde 3y ago
  By the time the lawsuit against standard oil had concluded, they had lost market share, because price fixing doesnt work in real life, as more than a few industrialists have had to learn the hard way. Rents and mortgages are too high, but you are looking in the wrong place thinking housing costs are high due to price fixing.
  - fireflash38 3y ago
    Do you have some papers to back up the claims that price fixing doesn't work?
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      Sure, I would recommend you start with "basic economics", 5th edition, by thomas sowell.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Are you speaking in the long term? Because it certainly works over decades-term. Standard still had 70% market share when it was charged, and 64% by the time it was broken up. Over the ~40 years it existed, it was incredibly profitable.
        Geisterde 3y ago
        I submit that the long term issues we are having in the united states, are in fact the result of short term solutions. Also, standard oil controlled more like 90% of the market, so in that context they had lost more like 25% by the time the trial concluded.
        ethbr1 3y ago
        64% is still an incredible pricing and profitability position. Most firms would kill to be in such a situation! Apple has, what, 20% smartphone market share? And look at the margins they're able to run. Granted, boosted by platform lock-in.

jessriedel 3y ago

Are you talking about this?: > One advantage RealPage’s data warehouse had was its access to actual lease transactions — giving it the true rents paid, instead of simply those a landlord advertised, RealPage said. The above quote is the most substantive description of info sharing I could find in the section "Who Uses the Software and How It Work" in the article you linked. Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that?

stackskipton 3y ago
>Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that? Companies and people generally do not share this information publicly and most companies consider it extremely proprietary. So yes, that what's these lawsuits are about. All these companies share this extremely sensitive data (Vacancy data, actual rent and length of rental contract) with RealPage, Realpage algorithms use it to price rent.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Another thing the could do with this information is, if one of their customers has to take a bunch of units off the market to refurbish/abate them, it can instantly increase all of the prices for their other customers because it knows the supply just changed.
- jessriedel 3y ago
  I mean, tenants share this info all the time. I'm not aware of them doing it really systematically anywhere, but I doubt there would be objections if they did. Likewise, no one objects when employees share salary info, anonymously or otherwise, even though employees usually treat this as confidential info.
  - stackskipton 3y ago
    And? This is companies with perfect set of data vs some theory crafted world where everyone individually did it perfectly?