6 ms·

> That secretive information sharing is the basis of the whole scheme. can you recommend a link that this describes this in detail?

karmajunkie 3y ago
the link at the top of this thread does so.
- jessriedel 3y ago
  It does not
colechristensen 3y ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-fixing-case-big-landlords-real-estate-tech https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-f... Contains links to an investigation and lawsuits where you can read DOJ complaints
- jessriedel 3y ago
  Right, but I'm asking a more specific question: what is the secret info that they are sharing? Is it just the rents?
letmeinhere 3y ago
The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...
- refurb 3y ago
  Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?
  - trifurcate 3y ago
    > But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
    - refurb 3y ago
      What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
  - olliej 3y ago
    The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
    - Geisterde 3y ago
      By the time the lawsuit against standard oil had concluded, they had lost market share, because price fixing doesnt work in real life, as more than a few industrialists have had to learn the hard way. Rents and mortgages are too high, but you are looking in the wrong place thinking housing costs are high due to price fixing.
- jessriedel 3y ago
  Are you talking about this?: > One advantage RealPage’s data warehouse had was its access to actual lease transactions — giving it the true rents paid, instead of simply those a landlord advertised, RealPage said. The above quote is the most substantive description of info sharing I could find in the section "Who Uses the Software and How It Work" in the article you linked. Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that?
  - stackskipton 3y ago
    >Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that? Companies and people generally do not share this information publicly and most companies consider it extremely proprietary. So yes, that what's these lawsuits are about. All these companies share this extremely sensitive data (Vacancy data, actual rent and length of rental contract) with RealPage, Realpage algorithms use it to price rent.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Another thing the could do with this information is, if one of their customers has to take a bunch of units off the market to refurbish/abate them, it can instantly increase all of the prices for their other customers because it knows the supply just changed.
    - jessriedel 3y ago
      I mean, tenants share this info all the time. I'm not aware of them doing it really systematically anywhere, but I doubt there would be objections if they did. Likewise, no one objects when employees share salary info, anonymously or otherwise, even though employees usually treat this as confidential info.
      - stackskipton 3y ago
        And? This is companies with perfect set of data vs some theory crafted world where everyone individually did it perfectly?
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
For folks who want to learn how these software developers operate: Armas v RealPage (ND California) https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.404548/gov.uscourts.cand.404548.1.0.pdf https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Boelens v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650.1.0.pdf https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Cherry v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205.1.0.pdf https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Corradino v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.62... Haynes v RealPage (ND Georgia) https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.319674/gov.uscourts.gand.319674.1.0.pdf https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.3... Kramer v RealPage (DC) https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559.1.0.pdf https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250... Lazarte v RealPage (ND California) https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.403342/gov.uscourts.cand.403342.1.0.pdf https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Marchetti v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273.1.0.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Morgan v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Navarro v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982.1.0.pdf https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... Parker v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Schmidig v RealPage (ED California) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Silverman v RealPage (SD New York) https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729.1.0.pdf https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... White v RealPage (Massachusetts) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Duffy v Yardi Systems (WD Washington) https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049.1.0.pdf https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Chirino v Yardi Systems (ED Virginia) https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931.1.0.pdf https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.54...

karmajunkie 3y ago

the link at the top of this thread does so.

jessriedel 3y ago
It does not

colechristensen 3y ago

https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-fixing-case-big-landlords-real-estate-tech https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-f... Contains links to an investigation and lawsuits where you can read DOJ complaints

jessriedel 3y ago
Right, but I'm asking a more specific question: what is the secret info that they are sharing? Is it just the rents?

letmeinhere 3y ago

The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...

refurb 3y ago
Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?
- trifurcate 3y ago
  > But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
  - refurb 3y ago
    What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
- olliej 3y ago
  The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    By the time the lawsuit against standard oil had concluded, they had lost market share, because price fixing doesnt work in real life, as more than a few industrialists have had to learn the hard way. Rents and mortgages are too high, but you are looking in the wrong place thinking housing costs are high due to price fixing.
jessriedel 3y ago
Are you talking about this?: > One advantage RealPage’s data warehouse had was its access to actual lease transactions — giving it the true rents paid, instead of simply those a landlord advertised, RealPage said. The above quote is the most substantive description of info sharing I could find in the section "Who Uses the Software and How It Work" in the article you linked. Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that?
- stackskipton 3y ago
  >Is the claim that the secretive info being shared is the actual rents tenants are paying? Are companies and people not normally allowed to share that? Companies and people generally do not share this information publicly and most companies consider it extremely proprietary. So yes, that what's these lawsuits are about. All these companies share this extremely sensitive data (Vacancy data, actual rent and length of rental contract) with RealPage, Realpage algorithms use it to price rent.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Another thing the could do with this information is, if one of their customers has to take a bunch of units off the market to refurbish/abate them, it can instantly increase all of the prices for their other customers because it knows the supply just changed.
  - jessriedel 3y ago
    I mean, tenants share this info all the time. I'm not aware of them doing it really systematically anywhere, but I doubt there would be objections if they did. Likewise, no one objects when employees share salary info, anonymously or otherwise, even though employees usually treat this as confidential info.
    - stackskipton 3y ago
      And? This is companies with perfect set of data vs some theory crafted world where everyone individually did it perfectly?

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

For folks who want to learn how these software developers operate: Armas v RealPage (ND California) https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.404548/gov.uscourts.cand.404548.1.0.pdf https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Boelens v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650.1.0.pdf https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Cherry v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205.1.0.pdf https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Corradino v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.62... Haynes v RealPage (ND Georgia) https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.319674/gov.uscourts.gand.319674.1.0.pdf https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.3... Kramer v RealPage (DC) https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559.1.0.pdf https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250... Lazarte v RealPage (ND California) https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.403342/gov.uscourts.cand.403342.1.0.pdf https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Marchetti v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273.1.0.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Morgan v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Navarro v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982.1.0.pdf https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... Parker v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Schmidig v RealPage (ED California) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Silverman v RealPage (SD New York) https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729.1.0.pdf https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... White v RealPage (Massachusetts) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Duffy v Yardi Systems (WD Washington) https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049.1.0.pdf https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Chirino v Yardi Systems (ED Virginia) https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931.1.0.pdf https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.54...