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The algorithm is not operating on public info, it is soliciting proprietary pricing and vacancy data that is not available to renters or regulators. That secret

The algorithm is not operating on public info, it is soliciting proprietary pricing and vacancy data that is not available to renters or regulators. That secretive information sharing is the basis of the whole scheme. And the collusion doesn't stop with this information hoarding; the pricing recommendations are as profitable as they are precisely because many property owners in a market are enacting them with the knowledge that a known quantity of their peers have no intent to undercut. Sure, someone can renege on that, but collusion doesn't require that you have an airtight legal contract to bind all parties; after all, such contracts are inherently illegal!

jessriedel 3y ago
> That secretive information sharing is the basis of the whole scheme. can you recommend a link that this describes this in detail?
- karmajunkie 3y ago
  the link at the top of this thread does so.
  - jessriedel 3y ago
    It does not
- colechristensen 3y ago
  https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-fixing-case-big-landlords-real-estate-tech https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-f... Contains links to an investigation and lawsuits where you can read DOJ complaints
  - jessriedel 3y ago
    Right, but I'm asking a more specific question: what is the secret info that they are sharing? Is it just the rents?
- letmeinhere 3y ago
  The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...
  - refurb 3y ago
    Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?
    - trifurcate 3y ago
      > But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
      - refurb 3y ago
        What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
    - olliej 3y ago
      The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  For folks who want to learn how these software developers operate: Armas v RealPage (ND California) https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.404548/gov.uscourts.cand.404548.1.0.pdf https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Boelens v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650.1.0.pdf https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Cherry v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205.1.0.pdf https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Corradino v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.62... Haynes v RealPage (ND Georgia) https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.319674/gov.uscourts.gand.319674.1.0.pdf https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.3... Kramer v RealPage (DC) https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559.1.0.pdf https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250... Lazarte v RealPage (ND California) https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.403342/gov.uscourts.cand.403342.1.0.pdf https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Marchetti v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273.1.0.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Morgan v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Navarro v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982.1.0.pdf https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... Parker v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Schmidig v RealPage (ED California) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Silverman v RealPage (SD New York) https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729.1.0.pdf https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... White v RealPage (Massachusetts) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Duffy v Yardi Systems (WD Washington) https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049.1.0.pdf https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Chirino v Yardi Systems (ED Virginia) https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931.1.0.pdf https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.54...
Terr_ 3y ago
> Sure, someone can renege on that, but collusion doesn't require that you have an airtight legal contract to bind all parties; after all, such contracts are inherently illegal! Small nitpick, collusion in a general sense is not illegal, but a price-fixing contract/conspiracy would be a crime under the Sherman Antitrust Act.

jessriedel 3y ago

> That secretive information sharing is the basis of the whole scheme. can you recommend a link that this describes this in detail?

karmajunkie 3y ago
the link at the top of this thread does so.
- jessriedel 3y ago
  It does not
colechristensen 3y ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-fixing-case-big-landlords-real-estate-tech https://www.propublica.org/article/doj-backs-tenants-price-f... Contains links to an investigation and lawsuits where you can read DOJ complaints
- jessriedel 3y ago
  Right, but I'm asking a more specific question: what is the secret info that they are sharing? Is it just the rents?
letmeinhere 3y ago
The propublica article linked at the beginning of this thread is how I learned about these parasites. Definitely recommend. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...
- refurb 3y ago
  Where? All I see is this: "A company representative said in an email that RealPage “uses aggregated market data from a variety of sources in a legally compliant manner.”" The only non-public data are it's own customers. But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage?
  - trifurcate 3y ago
    > But if I'm a massive landlord with multiple units, I have the same advantage? The entire point is that monopolization confers the same advantage that this scheme does.
    - refurb 3y ago
      What monopoliziation? The company in question is not the only one offering such services and certainly doesn't have a monopoly on data.
  - olliej 3y ago
    The whole idea of anti-monopoly laws is to prevent price fixing by market, and there are numerous (illegal) ways to do that: being a monopoly and using that position to set prices that are not representative of market value (both buying and selling. Iirc antitrust in the us started as a result of standard oil setting the price oil would be bought from suppliers). Another illegal option is collusion. That is a group of competitors get together and set a price that they will all use, again independent of actual Market value, just because the colluders have sufficient control of a market that when they set a price people have no choice but to pay it. This is super effective when the market it not fundamentally “free” like housing, gas, power, healthcare, etc. What these companies are doing is providing a tool to launder the collusion between competitors in a market, by having every “competitor” in the market get an “algorithmic” price that is fundamentally tied to the “algorithmic” price they provide every other “competitor”. If these landlords got together in a room and decided the prices as is happening here, it would be more or less immediately subjected to scrutiny. By doing the same thing via a third party and calling it an “algorithm” it is somehow not subject to the same restrictions.
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
For folks who want to learn how these software developers operate: Armas v RealPage (ND California) https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.404548/gov.uscourts.cand.404548.1.0.pdf https://ia801506.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Boelens v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650/gov.uscourts.wawd.317650.1.0.pdf https://ia801504.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Cherry v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205/gov.uscourts.wawd.316205.1.0.pdf https://ia601403.us.archive.org/33/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Corradino v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873/gov.uscourts.flsd.626873.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.62... Haynes v RealPage (ND Georgia) https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.319674/gov.uscourts.gand.319674.1.0.pdf https://ia801203.us.archive.org/14/items/gov.uscourts.gand.3... Kramer v RealPage (DC) https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559/gov.uscourts.dcd.250559.1.0.pdf https://ia904705.us.archive.org/0/items/gov.uscourts.dcd.250... Lazarte v RealPage (ND California) https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.403342/gov.uscourts.cand.403342.1.0.pdf https://ia804701.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.cand.4... Marchetti v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273/gov.uscourts.flsd.627273.1.0.pdf https://ia801602.us.archive.org/27/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Morgan v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112/gov.uscourts.wawd.317112.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Navarro v RealPage (WD Washington) https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982/gov.uscourts.wawd.315982.1.0.pdf https://ia601407.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.31... Parker v RealPage (SD Florida) https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854/gov.uscourts.flsd.626854.1.0.pdf https://ia804709.us.archive.org/15/items/gov.uscourts.flsd.6... Schmidig v RealPage (ED California) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Silverman v RealPage (SD New York) https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729/gov.uscourts.nysd.589729.1.0.pdf https://ia601506.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... White v RealPage (Massachusetts) https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.422698/gov.uscourts.caed.422698.1.0.pdf https://ia601603.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.caed.4... Duffy v Yardi Systems (WD Washington) https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049/gov.uscourts.wawd.326049.1.0.pdf https://ia800508.us.archive.org/30/items/gov.uscourts.wawd.3... Chirino v Yardi Systems (ED Virginia) https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931/gov.uscourts.vaed.547931.1.0.pdf https://ia801307.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.54...

Terr_ 3y ago

> Sure, someone can renege on that, but collusion doesn't require that you have an airtight legal contract to bind all parties; after all, such contracts are inherently illegal! Small nitpick, collusion in a general sense is not illegal, but a price-fixing contract/conspiracy would be a crime under the Sherman Antitrust Act.