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Not to mention that "the app store is a better ecosystem because it's easier for kids to impulse-buy in-app purchases from scammy games" is a heck of a take. I

Not to mention that "the app store is a better ecosystem because it's easier for kids to impulse-buy in-app purchases from scammy games" is a heck of a take. If mobile games are sticking to the app store purely because the purchase model on the web discourages impulse buys, that is a strong argument for investing more time and resources into the web as a platform and pushing more apps in that direction. "It's easier to monetize children" is not an argument in the app store's favor, it's an indictment on Apple's payment UX and parental controls. Presumably in this theoretical world, the only thing keeping Candy Crush off of the web is that he web isn't exploitative enough. Which... again, just a weird argument for anyone to make if they're arguing that the app store is the best solution for everyone. Everyone except users apparently.

scarface_74 3y ago
I’m saying that it isn’t logically that Apple is keeping PWAs from becoming more popular because today most of the revenue wouldn’t leave the App Store because it comes from pay to win games. On the other hand I’m saying today Android developers could move from Google Play and not have to pay the “Google tax”. But they don’t. Why not? Also if it is only Apple holding PWAs back, then why aren’t PWAs a popular way to escape the “Google tax”? It must be that Android developers think 30% is worth it.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > But they don’t. Why not? Because PWAs lack substantial capabilities that make them impossible to use for most app development. Which is what everyone has been saying. Note that developers do move out of the Android store, there are a host of applications available on F-Droid that are not available through the Android app store even though discoverability on F-Droid is nonexistent. But those developers don't build PWAs, because PWAs are not a viable platform for building modern apps. It has nothing to do with the 30% being worth it or not and everything to do with the fact that moving away from the app store on both Android and iOS is really only theoretically possible -- and PWAs in every practical sense can't actually be used to avoid the tax. You bring up Candy Crush above as an example of an app that could be a PWA. It couldn't. PWAs lack reliable storage mechanisms, unless Candy Crush starts requiring online accounts it's not going to ship as a PWA. Meanwhile, the last "big" app that tried to go down the PWA route was Wordle, which was both difficult for users to install and was immediately swamped with fraudulent clones in the app store claiming to be the official apps, which neither Google nor Apple did anything to stop. Once the NYT purchased Wordle, one of the first things they did was add an online account system -- in part to mitigate the common data losses that were present in the PWA. Wordle is the best possible candidate for a PWA, and the NYT is still struggling with it. I would not be surprised if at some point they don't turn it into a native app. It's not that the payments are worth 30%. It's that going outside the app store (even when you're not collecting any payments at all) isn't viable. Which is what everyone has been saying all this time. > Also if it is only Apple holding PWAs back It's not. Apple is one party holding PWAs back.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Exactly what is stopping King from having an online account or just having “login with $x” where $x is Google/Apple/Facebook? You act as if creating an online account is a big barrier to entry. I can set up a scalable online account in literally a couple of hours that allows login with third parties like the above with Cognito, Lambda and DynamoDB. It’s not a heavy lift. Yes I’ve done that at scale.
    - danShumway 3y ago
      > Exactly what is stopping King from having an online account or just having “login with $x” where $x is Google/Apple/Facebook? Privacy, security, convenience and the fact that it's a #$%&ing terrible user experience. Nobody wants to log in with Facebook every time they play a video game. I mean, heck, you're on here arguing about user privacy, and your solution to that is that more user data should be stored in the cloud? Come on. King does appear to have online accounts for at least the people who want them[0]. I would argue a lot of people probably don't want them. ---- [0]: Or at least did at one point, a "quick Google search" shows that King did at one point make its games available online and was forced to abandon that platform in 2020 due to (in their words), "changing web-based technology on major browsers". Seems like that suggests something about PWAs as a viable alternative to the app store, but whatever, I'm sure it's just a coincidence and we definitely shouldn't conclude anything from it other than that King loves forking over that 30% /s
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        > Privacy, security, convenience and the fact that it's a #$%&ing terrible user experience. Nobody wants to log in with Facebook every time they play a video game. I mean, heck, you're on here arguing about user privacy, and your solution to that is that more user data should be stored in the cloud? Come on. You mean like no one wants to log in with Steam, or their console? You realize that everyone on mobile is already logged in to an account where there game data can be saved an automatically synced right? > King does appear to have online accounts for at least the people who want them[0]. I would argue a lot of people probably don't want them. Since most people play on mobile, King didn’t need a separate online account, between saving in Game Center and just saving locally and letting iCloud taking care of the backups and online sync they didn’t have to.

scarface_74 3y ago

I’m saying that it isn’t logically that Apple is keeping PWAs from becoming more popular because today most of the revenue wouldn’t leave the App Store because it comes from pay to win games. On the other hand I’m saying today Android developers could move from Google Play and not have to pay the “Google tax”. But they don’t. Why not? Also if it is only Apple holding PWAs back, then why aren’t PWAs a popular way to escape the “Google tax”? It must be that Android developers think 30% is worth it.

danShumway 3y ago
> But they don’t. Why not? Because PWAs lack substantial capabilities that make them impossible to use for most app development. Which is what everyone has been saying. Note that developers do move out of the Android store, there are a host of applications available on F-Droid that are not available through the Android app store even though discoverability on F-Droid is nonexistent. But those developers don't build PWAs, because PWAs are not a viable platform for building modern apps. It has nothing to do with the 30% being worth it or not and everything to do with the fact that moving away from the app store on both Android and iOS is really only theoretically possible -- and PWAs in every practical sense can't actually be used to avoid the tax. You bring up Candy Crush above as an example of an app that could be a PWA. It couldn't. PWAs lack reliable storage mechanisms, unless Candy Crush starts requiring online accounts it's not going to ship as a PWA. Meanwhile, the last "big" app that tried to go down the PWA route was Wordle, which was both difficult for users to install and was immediately swamped with fraudulent clones in the app store claiming to be the official apps, which neither Google nor Apple did anything to stop. Once the NYT purchased Wordle, one of the first things they did was add an online account system -- in part to mitigate the common data losses that were present in the PWA. Wordle is the best possible candidate for a PWA, and the NYT is still struggling with it. I would not be surprised if at some point they don't turn it into a native app. It's not that the payments are worth 30%. It's that going outside the app store (even when you're not collecting any payments at all) isn't viable. Which is what everyone has been saying all this time. > Also if it is only Apple holding PWAs back It's not. Apple is one party holding PWAs back.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Exactly what is stopping King from having an online account or just having “login with $x” where $x is Google/Apple/Facebook? You act as if creating an online account is a big barrier to entry. I can set up a scalable online account in literally a couple of hours that allows login with third parties like the above with Cognito, Lambda and DynamoDB. It’s not a heavy lift. Yes I’ve done that at scale.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    > Exactly what is stopping King from having an online account or just having “login with $x” where $x is Google/Apple/Facebook? Privacy, security, convenience and the fact that it's a #$%&ing terrible user experience. Nobody wants to log in with Facebook every time they play a video game. I mean, heck, you're on here arguing about user privacy, and your solution to that is that more user data should be stored in the cloud? Come on. King does appear to have online accounts for at least the people who want them[0]. I would argue a lot of people probably don't want them. ---- [0]: Or at least did at one point, a "quick Google search" shows that King did at one point make its games available online and was forced to abandon that platform in 2020 due to (in their words), "changing web-based technology on major browsers". Seems like that suggests something about PWAs as a viable alternative to the app store, but whatever, I'm sure it's just a coincidence and we definitely shouldn't conclude anything from it other than that King loves forking over that 30% /s
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      > Privacy, security, convenience and the fact that it's a #$%&ing terrible user experience. Nobody wants to log in with Facebook every time they play a video game. I mean, heck, you're on here arguing about user privacy, and your solution to that is that more user data should be stored in the cloud? Come on. You mean like no one wants to log in with Steam, or their console? You realize that everyone on mobile is already logged in to an account where there game data can be saved an automatically synced right? > King does appear to have online accounts for at least the people who want them[0]. I would argue a lot of people probably don't want them. Since most people play on mobile, King didn’t need a separate online account, between saving in Game Center and just saving locally and letting iCloud taking care of the backups and online sync they didn’t have to.