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> And don’t get me started on the terrible foray into the ethics of suicide that came out of nowhere. More correct term would not be suicide, but euthanasia as

by uticus 3y ago

> And don’t get me started on the terrible foray into the ethics of suicide that came out of nowhere. More correct term would not be suicide, but euthanasia as it is 'assisted suicide' [0]. The Roman Catholic church (and iirc the larger Christian church historically, including Eastern Orthodox) teach both as evil. But I make the distinction because euthanasia - with its larger inter-personal concepts - is the more appropriate target for the story which is pretty focused on the interplay between Western Christianity and Western science. Throughout the book society struggles with Christianity and church authority, with handling newfound physical power via tech and tools (that spring from the church's efforts), and with how society and the church handle large-scale societal pain. The handling of societal pain part is sometimes more alike between society and the church, sometimes - like with euthanasia you mentioned - more like battle lines. So the 'foray into ethics' is like the very heart of the book. Not trying to persuade you to like the book, but hope it helps at least understand what you're disliking. If I sound passionate it's only because this is what I like about the book. There are parts I don't like and really don't even get, but at least I appreciate this sort of science fiction that deals with real stuff that I and others have to work through. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Definitions

_virtu 3y ago
Thanks for the clarification on suicide vs assisted suicide. Yes, I do agree that the discussion in the book is about assisted suicide. It's been about a year since I've read it, so those details evaded me. I do understand where the author was going with the discussion regarding assisted suicide, but the timing of the argument and the amount of time spent on it at the point in the story is the root of my main objection with presenting it. Throughout most of the book, there's very little regarding ethics at least with the amount of painstaking detail that it's presented in, in comparison to the assisted suicide discussion. The discussion felt bolted on as it was presented around the fever pitch of the story just before a global nuclear war is about to break loose, we get bludgeoned over the head by a priest that's fervently against assisted suicide. The placement of the argument and the timing is just awkward in my opinion. Again, this book touches on a lot of interesting ideas ahead of its time but the execution feels weak and confused. I would have preferred that each part remain completely separate honestly. And of course, all of this is based on my taste. I recognize that this is considered a seminal piece of science fiction. In general I find myself fairly forgiving when attempting to read something I normally wouldn't, but this took the cake for me in regards to the amount of pain per page I suffered while trying to make it through.

by uticus 3y ago

_virtu 3y ago

Thanks for the clarification on suicide vs assisted suicide. Yes, I do agree that the discussion in the book is about assisted suicide. It's been about a year since I've read it, so those details evaded me. I do understand where the author was going with the discussion regarding assisted suicide, but the timing of the argument and the amount of time spent on it at the point in the story is the root of my main objection with presenting it. Throughout most of the book, there's very little regarding ethics at least with the amount of painstaking detail that it's presented in, in comparison to the assisted suicide discussion. The discussion felt bolted on as it was presented around the fever pitch of the story just before a global nuclear war is about to break loose, we get bludgeoned over the head by a priest that's fervently against assisted suicide. The placement of the argument and the timing is just awkward in my opinion. Again, this book touches on a lot of interesting ideas ahead of its time but the execution feels weak and confused. I would have preferred that each part remain completely separate honestly. And of course, all of this is based on my taste. I recognize that this is considered a seminal piece of science fiction. In general I find myself fairly forgiving when attempting to read something I normally wouldn't, but this took the cake for me in regards to the amount of pain per page I suffered while trying to make it through.