5 ms·

The whole concept of collective bargaining kinda evaporates when the collective is small enough, and the company large enough, that the company is be able to n

by tifik 3y ago

The whole concept of collective bargaining kinda evaporates when the collective is small enough, and the company large enough, that the company is be able to not give a duck about the entire collective and their collective actions. In this case they can just fire them all on the spot ("can" as in are able to, not as in have a legal right to) and it evidently doesn't cause any large enough issues for them. I sympathize with the workers, but they clearly overplayed their hand.

MichaelRo 3y ago
[flagged]
- greazy 3y ago
  This is a very odd stance to take. If we can agree unions are a good thing then both the high and low paying employees should have access to and use unions. I would argue that Google staff unionising is a good thing for everyone. It shows even high paid tech workers deserve protection. Google has demonstrated this exactly. They just fired everyone in the team!
  - MichaelRo 3y ago
    >> If we can agree unions are a good thing then both the high and low paying employees should have access to and use unions. That's exactly the kind of privileged talk I would expect from someone who never had it rough in live. No, living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker.
    - tifik 3y ago
      >living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker. I don't see anyone claiming they are the same. Parent says both deserve the same rights, including the right to enter a union. Granted, there is a clear disparity in what either group can potentially gain from it.
    - LightFog 3y ago
      This kind of mentality does someone in the tougher position no good. Higher paid or more established employees joining a union will likely be making sacrifices to help more vulnerable colleagues in the name of solidarity. The alternative is division which an employer (or group of employers) will take with open arms.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      > No, living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker. Where do you see that these union members are "high paid pampered workers" who are "delicate snowflakes with countless perks and baristas at their service"? At https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-contract-workers-unionize-with-alphabet-workers-union-cwa-file-petition-with-nlrb-to-win-bargaining-rights https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-con... I read "We are so proud to stand together to demand that our employers give us the basic dignity of a living wage, so that we can continue to enjoy living and working in our community that has become nearly impossible to afford–due in part to big technology companies relocating their headquarters here." I don't think high paid pampered workers would call for a living wage, so I don't think you are talking about these employees. At https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-workers-hold-unfair-labor-practice-strike-as-google-refuses-to-bargain-ignores-nlrb https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-wor... I read complaints about "Google and Cognizant’s unlawful refusal to bargain." You can't really believe that if you employer pays you well that means you employer gets to break the law, do you? It also points out "Currently, 10% of the YouTube Music Content Operations Team has COVID. Yet, in the midst of this outbreak, Cognizant and Google are denying workers access to COVID tests, paid COVID leave or even the flexibility to safely work from home. This is counter to the policies Google sets for its main office buildings." suggesting that your views about how Google employees are treated aren't relevant to these union members, who are treated different than the highly-paid engineers at the Googleplex.
- chucksmash 3y ago
  Sometimes trying to find patterns in the past and apply them to modern day situations can lead to absurd results, and I think your comment shows that perfectly. I'm open to the idea of unionization or a guild for SWEs but being beat to death by Pinkertons we are not.
- lsy 3y ago
  It's odd to use dock workers as a contrast, since their heavy unionization has led to very high pay rates (which, for the record, I think are deserved): "Full-time dock foremen earned 24% more than the average CEO’s base salary in 2022 and 20% more than neurologists. ILWU clerks earned just $5,600 per year less than airline pilots. Full-time dockworkers came in 21% higher than lawyers and 9% above dentists. Average earnings in 2022 for all full-time ILWU registrants — $211,000 — were 3.4 times higher than the average wage for all professions calculated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics."[1] Meanwhile the "Google employees" referenced in this story are contractors who are paid ~$19/hr, or ~$40k/year at full time pay. [1]https://finance.yahoo.com/news/west-coast-dockworkers-making-200k-193925959.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/west-coast-dockworkers-making...
  - MichaelRo 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      This is a lazy complaint unless you post evidence of the same account complaining about both. Otherwise it's obvious well paid people like to brag and underpaid people like to shed light on their situation.
    - tdb7893 3y ago
      So compensation is high but if you look at profits of the companies many workers actually aren't capturing much of the value they are generating. So yeah the people unionizing are getting paid like 200+ thousand a year but when corporate profits are 400+ thousand a year per person there's a good argument that they should be making more. Also this is assuming that the only point of unionization is pay and that's just not true. My experience is that pro-union people have a variety of things. One example is that I once worked at a place where they initially denied an exception to return to office rules to someone who had an immunocompromised family member. A union allows workers to collectively put their foot down on policies that are unacceptable. Honestly tech workers are often paid well but very stressed out. This is an aside but overall I've found the anti-union sentiment in tech to be weird in that they view standing up to management as some sort of weakness. To me the real cowards are the people who will watch an asshole in a 200 million dollar house dictate policies without ever even considering fighting back. I don't get how people have made continuously rolling over in front of management a virtue, it's just silly. Edit: to be fair maybe the anti-union people have never had management do stupid or unfair policies and maybe they haven't seen their company laying people off while announcing tens of billions in stock buy backs but too many people in this industry have and it doesn't make them a "snowflake" to want to fight.
- whelp_24 3y ago
  This argument is not one that union advocates would make. Indeed, the separation of blue collar and white collar work is a problem that gets in the way of goals of union advocates. There may not be guns pointed at programmers, but there are long hours expectations. The perks you're talking about tech workers being pampered with are there to keep workers there longer. The land wealthy companies have been buying to get cheap housing for employees echo company towns but legal. I recommend reading books like "Brave New World" to highlight how being 'pampered' doesn't mean you're not in a distopia. In any case, you don't have to like unions, just understand that tech isn't an exception.
  - acdha 3y ago
    > There may not be guns pointed at programmers, but there are long hours expectations. The perks you're talking about tech workers being pampered with are there to keep workers there longer. I’d also add things like ageism to the mix. It’s not hard to find people who thought this was great when they were 25 but now a couple decades later are noticing that it kind of sucks when they have family responsibilities and also the people their age or older are increasingly laid off or pushed to leave.
oven9342 3y ago
That’s why an American president prevented corporations from becoming this almighty
salawat 3y ago
>I sympathize with the workers, but they clearly overplayed their hand. Who? The workers? By unionizing?

by tifik 3y ago

MichaelRo 3y ago

[flagged]

greazy 3y ago
This is a very odd stance to take. If we can agree unions are a good thing then both the high and low paying employees should have access to and use unions. I would argue that Google staff unionising is a good thing for everyone. It shows even high paid tech workers deserve protection. Google has demonstrated this exactly. They just fired everyone in the team!
- MichaelRo 3y ago
  >> If we can agree unions are a good thing then both the high and low paying employees should have access to and use unions. That's exactly the kind of privileged talk I would expect from someone who never had it rough in live. No, living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker.
  - tifik 3y ago
    >living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker. I don't see anyone claiming they are the same. Parent says both deserve the same rights, including the right to enter a union. Granted, there is a clear disparity in what either group can potentially gain from it.
  - LightFog 3y ago
    This kind of mentality does someone in the tougher position no good. Higher paid or more established employees joining a union will likely be making sacrifices to help more vulnerable colleagues in the name of solidarity. The alternative is division which an employer (or group of employers) will take with open arms.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    > No, living on minimum wage doing shitwork is not the same as high paid pampered worker. Where do you see that these union members are "high paid pampered workers" who are "delicate snowflakes with countless perks and baristas at their service"? At https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-contract-workers-unionize-with-alphabet-workers-union-cwa-file-petition-with-nlrb-to-win-bargaining-rights https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-con... I read "We are so proud to stand together to demand that our employers give us the basic dignity of a living wage, so that we can continue to enjoy living and working in our community that has become nearly impossible to afford–due in part to big technology companies relocating their headquarters here." I don't think high paid pampered workers would call for a living wage, so I don't think you are talking about these employees. At https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-workers-hold-unfair-labor-practice-strike-as-google-refuses-to-bargain-ignores-nlrb https://www.alphabetworkersunion.org/press/youtube-music-wor... I read complaints about "Google and Cognizant’s unlawful refusal to bargain." You can't really believe that if you employer pays you well that means you employer gets to break the law, do you? It also points out "Currently, 10% of the YouTube Music Content Operations Team has COVID. Yet, in the midst of this outbreak, Cognizant and Google are denying workers access to COVID tests, paid COVID leave or even the flexibility to safely work from home. This is counter to the policies Google sets for its main office buildings." suggesting that your views about how Google employees are treated aren't relevant to these union members, who are treated different than the highly-paid engineers at the Googleplex.
chucksmash 3y ago
Sometimes trying to find patterns in the past and apply them to modern day situations can lead to absurd results, and I think your comment shows that perfectly. I'm open to the idea of unionization or a guild for SWEs but being beat to death by Pinkertons we are not.
lsy 3y ago
It's odd to use dock workers as a contrast, since their heavy unionization has led to very high pay rates (which, for the record, I think are deserved): "Full-time dock foremen earned 24% more than the average CEO’s base salary in 2022 and 20% more than neurologists. ILWU clerks earned just $5,600 per year less than airline pilots. Full-time dockworkers came in 21% higher than lawyers and 9% above dentists. Average earnings in 2022 for all full-time ILWU registrants — $211,000 — were 3.4 times higher than the average wage for all professions calculated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics."[1] Meanwhile the "Google employees" referenced in this story are contractors who are paid ~$19/hr, or ~$40k/year at full time pay. [1]https://finance.yahoo.com/news/west-coast-dockworkers-making-200k-193925959.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/west-coast-dockworkers-making...
- MichaelRo 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    This is a lazy complaint unless you post evidence of the same account complaining about both. Otherwise it's obvious well paid people like to brag and underpaid people like to shed light on their situation.
  - tdb7893 3y ago
    So compensation is high but if you look at profits of the companies many workers actually aren't capturing much of the value they are generating. So yeah the people unionizing are getting paid like 200+ thousand a year but when corporate profits are 400+ thousand a year per person there's a good argument that they should be making more. Also this is assuming that the only point of unionization is pay and that's just not true. My experience is that pro-union people have a variety of things. One example is that I once worked at a place where they initially denied an exception to return to office rules to someone who had an immunocompromised family member. A union allows workers to collectively put their foot down on policies that are unacceptable. Honestly tech workers are often paid well but very stressed out. This is an aside but overall I've found the anti-union sentiment in tech to be weird in that they view standing up to management as some sort of weakness. To me the real cowards are the people who will watch an asshole in a 200 million dollar house dictate policies without ever even considering fighting back. I don't get how people have made continuously rolling over in front of management a virtue, it's just silly. Edit: to be fair maybe the anti-union people have never had management do stupid or unfair policies and maybe they haven't seen their company laying people off while announcing tens of billions in stock buy backs but too many people in this industry have and it doesn't make them a "snowflake" to want to fight.
whelp_24 3y ago
This argument is not one that union advocates would make. Indeed, the separation of blue collar and white collar work is a problem that gets in the way of goals of union advocates. There may not be guns pointed at programmers, but there are long hours expectations. The perks you're talking about tech workers being pampered with are there to keep workers there longer. The land wealthy companies have been buying to get cheap housing for employees echo company towns but legal. I recommend reading books like "Brave New World" to highlight how being 'pampered' doesn't mean you're not in a distopia. In any case, you don't have to like unions, just understand that tech isn't an exception.
- acdha 3y ago
  > There may not be guns pointed at programmers, but there are long hours expectations. The perks you're talking about tech workers being pampered with are there to keep workers there longer. I’d also add things like ageism to the mix. It’s not hard to find people who thought this was great when they were 25 but now a couple decades later are noticing that it kind of sucks when they have family responsibilities and also the people their age or older are increasingly laid off or pushed to leave.

oven9342 3y ago

That’s why an American president prevented corporations from becoming this almighty

salawat 3y ago

>I sympathize with the workers, but they clearly overplayed their hand. Who? The workers? By unionizing?