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No, you are mistaken again. I am quite clear on the overall message of the article. I think you get the point of it as well but you're intelligent enough to no

No, you are mistaken again. I am quite clear on the overall message of the article. I think you get the point of it as well but you're intelligent enough to not bother trying to defend the indefensible, so you complain about me and ad-hominem me as a fanatic. The gist of the article is that many French business owners are willfully weaseling out of meeting their social obligations as set forth in the laws of the society in which they live and run their businesses. There's really no way to put a pretty face on that. It is what it is. It's explicitly stated in the article that the people in question are keeping the headcounts at their enterprises artificially low by starting multiple 49-person companies and, in other cases, by farming out the low-skilled bits of their process to countries with much lower wages and much weaker worker protections specifically because of wage and workplace rule differences. The best justifications that the businesspeople quoted in the article can come up with is that they don't want to have to see their workers' reps every week, that it's a pain to ensure that their HR people are aware of periodic changes in social security witholding rates, and the like. They are eerily silent about profit-sharing, which is one of the responsibilities that they are evading, and evidently none of them had the stomach to try to explain why it would be a good thing for society for them to be able to suddenly lay off large numbers of employees without having to provide any sort of justification.

swombat 14y ago
My view is I would not start a business in France in a thousand years (I'm swiss and have a house in France) because of the legislation and generally disgusting attitude that french people have towards their employers. Work is not a right, it's a privilege. Moreover, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. We live in a globalised world where if you're not competitive on the world scale, you're dead or dying. Laws that severely constrain firing make french companies uncompetitive. I recall a news story about an entrepreneur who had to lay off 25 of his 125 employees because there wasn't enough revenue. As someone who has laid off people before, I can guarantee you that he sweated blood before coming to this decision. So what did his lovely remaining employee do in response? They went on strike. My reaction to this would be: "Oh really? Then I'll shut down the business and move to another country." You're a fucking fanatic. That's why you've been downvoted all over this thread. Grow up and learn that the socialist-fanatic point of view is not the only one (not even in France).
- briandon 14y ago
  This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Judging by your posting history and your attacks in this thread you are, at the very best, an ill-mannered fanatical libertarian type and possibly suffering from emotional/psychological problems. I'm someone who currently lives in the sort of society that I suspect you would build given a chance ... whereas you seem to live in the UK and, as you mention, have a residence in France and Swiss citizenship. Better yet, I live on the very edge of the developed world smack dab next to one of the places where dangerous and low-skilled, low-wage work gets done in your "globalized world". I also own and run a business that employs people and I manage to do it without behaving like a 19th-century robber baron or whining about not being able to treat everyone around me like Bob Cratchit or some other poor, downtrodden SOB in a Dickens novel. To the extent that I have been down-voted, it's because HN posters skew to a younger, less-life-experienced demographic ... or self-deluded wannabe tycoons like yourself -- who don't see the idiocy in lecturing someone with many years of experience of having their boots on the ground in a near-laissez-faire environment in the developing world from a comfortable perch in a developed economy where the negative effects of your sociopathic tendencies are at least somewhat restrained. At any rate, I appreciate the few moments of entertainment that your mouth frothing has given me.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    > possibly suffering from emotional/psychological problems. > At any rate, I appreciate the few moments of entertainment that your moth frothing has given me. These are not needed and are offensive. Please would you consider striking them, especially the psychological problems? Using mental health problems as an attack is not acceptable. > To the extent that I have been down-voted, it's because HN posters skew to a younger, less-life-experienced demographic ... or self-deluded wannabe tycoons like yourself You might want to think a bit more about why you're getting downvotes.
    - briandon 14y ago
      Given the other poster's unnecessarily hostile and repeated personal attacks and use of profanity (e.g. "You're a fucking fanatic.", "Grow up and learn that [...].", etc. from just that last post)., I honestly suspect that he is fighting some sort of personal demon. As I said, I'm getting downvoted here because, in general, the postership skews towards younger, sheltered types with relatively little life experience. Then there are some slightly older folks who have gotten some experience under their belts but who are convinced that if they could just treat everyone else and society at large worse, they could scramble up over them and declare themselves kings of the hill. The end result is that HN sometimes ends up being a venue for people who have grown up in privileged situations in developed countries, benefiting enormously from social safety nets whether they're conscious of that or not, to gnash their teeth over not being able to tear apart those same social safety nets. They don't seem to grasp that, if they had grown up in the sort of place that they want so badly to create, they themselves would likely be stuck on the bottom couple of rungs on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, preoccupied with just earning enough money to feed, clothe, and house themselves. They aren't even eager to go and live in places like their dream kingdoms, because those other swashbucklingly entrepreneurial places aren't as nice to live or raise families in as the evil socialistic, freedom-destroying places that they currently live.

swombat 14y ago

My view is I would not start a business in France in a thousand years (I'm swiss and have a house in France) because of the legislation and generally disgusting attitude that french people have towards their employers. Work is not a right, it's a privilege. Moreover, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. We live in a globalised world where if you're not competitive on the world scale, you're dead or dying. Laws that severely constrain firing make french companies uncompetitive. I recall a news story about an entrepreneur who had to lay off 25 of his 125 employees because there wasn't enough revenue. As someone who has laid off people before, I can guarantee you that he sweated blood before coming to this decision. So what did his lovely remaining employee do in response? They went on strike. My reaction to this would be: "Oh really? Then I'll shut down the business and move to another country." You're a fucking fanatic. That's why you've been downvoted all over this thread. Grow up and learn that the socialist-fanatic point of view is not the only one (not even in France).

briandon 14y ago
This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Judging by your posting history and your attacks in this thread you are, at the very best, an ill-mannered fanatical libertarian type and possibly suffering from emotional/psychological problems. I'm someone who currently lives in the sort of society that I suspect you would build given a chance ... whereas you seem to live in the UK and, as you mention, have a residence in France and Swiss citizenship. Better yet, I live on the very edge of the developed world smack dab next to one of the places where dangerous and low-skilled, low-wage work gets done in your "globalized world". I also own and run a business that employs people and I manage to do it without behaving like a 19th-century robber baron or whining about not being able to treat everyone around me like Bob Cratchit or some other poor, downtrodden SOB in a Dickens novel. To the extent that I have been down-voted, it's because HN posters skew to a younger, less-life-experienced demographic ... or self-deluded wannabe tycoons like yourself -- who don't see the idiocy in lecturing someone with many years of experience of having their boots on the ground in a near-laissez-faire environment in the developing world from a comfortable perch in a developed economy where the negative effects of your sociopathic tendencies are at least somewhat restrained. At any rate, I appreciate the few moments of entertainment that your mouth frothing has given me.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > possibly suffering from emotional/psychological problems. > At any rate, I appreciate the few moments of entertainment that your moth frothing has given me. These are not needed and are offensive. Please would you consider striking them, especially the psychological problems? Using mental health problems as an attack is not acceptable. > To the extent that I have been down-voted, it's because HN posters skew to a younger, less-life-experienced demographic ... or self-deluded wannabe tycoons like yourself You might want to think a bit more about why you're getting downvotes.
  - briandon 14y ago
    Given the other poster's unnecessarily hostile and repeated personal attacks and use of profanity (e.g. "You're a fucking fanatic.", "Grow up and learn that [...].", etc. from just that last post)., I honestly suspect that he is fighting some sort of personal demon. As I said, I'm getting downvoted here because, in general, the postership skews towards younger, sheltered types with relatively little life experience. Then there are some slightly older folks who have gotten some experience under their belts but who are convinced that if they could just treat everyone else and society at large worse, they could scramble up over them and declare themselves kings of the hill. The end result is that HN sometimes ends up being a venue for people who have grown up in privileged situations in developed countries, benefiting enormously from social safety nets whether they're conscious of that or not, to gnash their teeth over not being able to tear apart those same social safety nets. They don't seem to grasp that, if they had grown up in the sort of place that they want so badly to create, they themselves would likely be stuck on the bottom couple of rungs on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, preoccupied with just earning enough money to feed, clothe, and house themselves. They aren't even eager to go and live in places like their dream kingdoms, because those other swashbucklingly entrepreneurial places aren't as nice to live or raise families in as the evil socialistic, freedom-destroying places that they currently live.